WTC: A Question about joints in the verticle beams

[funk de fino]

Mr. funk,

I'll gladly change the claim from perfectly straight to "really straight".

"Straight to the naked eye".


I am emphasizing the lack of "buckling" or even noticable belding. I also want to emphasize the lack of something as simple as denting on most all of them.

All my claims refer to core BOX columns.

No forensic evidence just what you think you can see from photos?

Brilliant skills, remind me again why anybody should take you seriously?

 

[Newtons Bit]

Mr. funk,

I'll gladly change the claim from perfectly straight to "really straight".

"Straight to the naked eye".


I am emphasizing the lack of "buckling" or even noticable belding. I also want to emphasize the lack of something as simple as denting on most all of them.

All my claims refer to core BOX columns.



Ben, all they need is one night. Magnetic placement of very small devices just along the weld seems.

Elevator access.



But I don't believe in the Bazant equations like many of you do.

I was just mentioning that for those that believe in Bazant's conclusions, both building demolition and urban large scale terrorism just became much easier, at least on paper.


All my claims refer to core BOX columns.

The buckling and formation of plastic hinges is the mechanism in which columns fail axially. To appease the truth movement, some people like myself have ignored the fact that the columns are even spliced in our calculations, preferring to instead use the columns as full sections as this requires more energy to dissipate.

That said, even spliced together columns will buckle and develop plastic hinges under high enough pure axial loading. However, one of the plastic hinges of this column will be at a splice point. And since splices are brittle and of lower strength than the column section itself, we can expect minimal rotation of the column when the splice fails.

But again, we assume that the splices are strong to appease the assumptions and lunacies of people like Gordon Ross and the rest of the truthers who say that there's no way the building could have collapsed, that it would have bounced.

 

[Major_Tom]

NB, this was not appeasement.

You folks simply did not know that the welds were the "plastic hinges".


Note that it is Bazant that requires an extreme rigidity for his "upper block". It is he that needs to pretend that the weakest weld connections did not exist or there is no composite object to "crush" the lower block.


This was not appeasement. It was simply working with the wrong model.


You mention:

That said, even spliced together columns will buckle and develop plastic hinges under high enough pure axial loading.

The much more probable model would be weld breaks based on lateral "jolts".

The only way Bazant was able to consider extreme axial loads is because his model is based on direct column-to-column collisions.

Direct column-to-column collisions head on? Another fantasy.

The column to-column collision assumption favors Bazant, not the opposing argument.

Once again, not appeasement. Just some fictional model.

 

[Gravy]

Gravy, you are right. I should have stated the following: Max Photon first mentioned it but he got the idea from me elsewhere.

It first appeared here THROUGH Max.

No, Major Tom, we've had to explain to many truthers, in words and with photos, that most of the columns broke at their welds into truck-length segments, as they were fabricated. You and Max bring an amazing amount of solipsistic egotism, and a talent for ignoring the bloody obvious, to this forum. You may as well have told us that you introduced the news that the buildings were on fire.

Now, Major Tom, explain to us why you continued to insist that we didn't understand this concept, even after you acknowledged that we did?

And explain why you would not answer our repeated calls for you to explain what was unusual about the columns separating at their welds.

And explain why, after months, you still are unable to make any sort of coherent argument or present evidence that calls into question the gravity-driven collapses.

Still waiting for your explanation and your apology for wasting our time. Are you mature enough to do that and start on the road to rationality?

 

[Major_Tom]

We? Are all you guys a big team?

Gravy, I hope you handle these interchanges more calmly than you appear to.


Some of the posters have a lot of useful information to offer. Many people picked up on the new info about the core box columns rather quickly. And they offer useful information in turn.


You, on the other hand, seem to be lagging behind a bit.


You seem to be so obsessed with criticizing those who don't see the world as you do that you don't seem to have any useful research information to offer on the subject.


Mr funk, photographic evidence is forensic evidence.

 

[Gravy]

One last time, Major Tom. Are you mature enough?


Now, Major Tom, explain to us why you continued to insist that we didn't understand this concept, even after you acknowledged that we did?

And explain why you would not answer our repeated calls for you to explain what was unusual about the columns separating at their welds.

And explain why, after months, you still are unable to make any sort of coherent argument or present evidence that calls into question the gravity-driven collapses.

Still waiting for your explanation and your apology for wasting our time. Are you mature enough to do that and start on the road to rationality?

 

[Newtons Bit]

Nevermind the fact that I posted this:

Your Eplastic figure is very important in this calculation and reasonably should be dropped. To assume the columns undergo 90 degree plastic hinges is a little absurd. Especially considering 1/3 of the columns on that floor will have a splice point at a plastic hinge. That splice will not rotate, it will fracture immediately absorbing almost no energy.

Before this thread was even started. I've talked about this concept before here and elsewhere (probably LCF). It's not rocket science.

 

[BenBurch]

Ben, all they need is one night. Magnetic placement of very small devices just along the weld seams.

Elevator access.

I estimated the man hours to get to a single weld seam at 6 man hours. And that is with power VERY loud tools. You appear to be completely ignorant of how work is done. I suspect because you've never done a day's hard physical labor in your whole life.

So, what you suggest is not possible.

And the devices you suggest are not small. And the reason for that is unless you have cored the steel and embedded the explosive with carefully-placed taping, most of the energy is wasted. The air is the path of least resistance here; The force of the explosive shrugged off by the steel until the bomb is quite large.

Which means you have never dealt with explosives in your life.

I have.

You're acting a fool here, son.

 

[Gravy]

Major Tom doesn't even know that most of the columns in the collapse initiation zones weren't accessible from the elevator shafts, and those that were, were subjected to airliner impacts and raging fires. He can't be bothered to do the most basic research to determine if anything he believes is true.

Like his friend Max Photon, he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about, he doesn't care to learn, and he's having a good time wasting the time of intelligent, patient people.

 

[BenBurch]

Major Tom doesn't even know that most of the columns in the collapse initiation zones weren't accessible from the elevator shafts, and those that were, were subjected to airliner impacts and raging fires. He can't be bothered to do the most basic research to determine if anything he believes is true.

Like his friend Max Photon, he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about, he doesn't care to learn, and he's having a good time wasting the time of intelligent, patient people.

Exactly.

You know, big iron buildings like that ring like bells when you work on the skeletons... So in addition to hush-a-boom bombs, you need silent vibrationless power tools...

And if we have those, can somebody get my neighbor a set, please? He has taken to working out in his garage every weekend night to 2 or 3 in the morning.

 

[funk de fino]

Mr funk, photographic evidence is forensic evidence.

Those were forensic photographs taken at the scene by the investigators? Are all photographs forensic evidence?

And this is supposed to show you that the columns were straight? This is what your whole theory rests on? That you think the columns look straight in a photo?

Where are the measurements? What do NIST say about columns?

 

[leftysergeant]

Placing cutting charges on the welds would leave a distinctive signiture invollving a bit of melting as well as distortion of surrounding metal. I dont see that. I see broken weld beads. Show me melted ends.

 

[Major_Tom]

Newt, you are ahead of the curve on a lot of this stuff.

There are so many threads in this forum.

So that I can catch up on what was said previously, could you please direct me to the conversations you folks have had in the past on the topic of the straightness of the core box columns in the rubble and their ends being just along the original weld surfaces?


The topic began by discussing welds among other things.

Some people mentioned that the welds have very little resistance to a lateral kick.

So, Leftysergent, we would have to know how strong a jolt is necessary from the side of the weld before we can address how strong the device would need to be or how much damage a device would leave.

No cutter charges. Nothing is being cut.

 

[Gravy]

Third time, Major Tom:

Now, Major Tom, explain to us why you continued to insist that we didn't understand this concept, even after you acknowledged that we did?

And explain why you would not answer our repeated calls for you to explain what was unusual about the columns separating at their welds.

And explain why, after months, you still are unable to make any sort of coherent argument or present evidence that calls into question the gravity-driven collapses.

Still waiting for your explanation and your apology for wasting our time. Are you mature enough to do that and start on the road to rationality?

 

[BenBurch]

Gravy,

Looking for maturity from a truther is, well, expecting them to become a non-truther. No actually mature person could maintain something like this so long in the face of reality. It is like believing in The Great Pumpkin.

-Ben

 

[PhantomWolf]

Okay, so I'm a little confused. Is Tom trying to claim that the core columns that NIST were interested, ie those from the collpase zones that were first pummeled by a 767 slamming into them and then having the top section fall onto them, should be in as good a condition as the core columns that NIST wasn't interested in and split apart when the "spires" fell?

 

[leftysergeant]

Some people mentioned that the welds have very little resistance to a lateral kick.

So, Leftysergent, we would have to know how strong a jolt is necessary from the side of the weld before we can address how strong the device would need to be or how much damage a device would leave.

No cutter charges. Nothing is being cut.

You would still need a lot of explosives to kick the columns. That's part of why shaped charges are used as cutting charges. More of the energy is directerd at the spot where you want to break something.

To kick the columns, the charges would have to be somewhat out in the open, and they would created a noticeable overpressurization of the floors on which they are located.

They would also make a God-awful racket.

We have no sign of this anywhere.