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Wrong door shootings.

About ten years ago I was hanging out with some friends. One of them is a retired South Carolina State Trooper who was an instructor at the SC State Police academy. He lamented that there were guys he saw graduate who'd made him uneasy. He'd do everything he legally could to see if he could push them over the edge - to wash them out. But some of them made it through none the less, and he'd watch them graduate thinking, "I hope I don't see this guy in the news". He also complained about how many police departments would have these "training seminars" with "experts" who were supposedly teaching officers how to deal with life threatening situations. These training sessions, which are conducted by private contractors who get paid for them, often contain cautionary tales about The Guy Who Died Because He Hesitated. I'm sure that's why we see some cops pointing guns at people who aren't acting threatening in any way. I also think it goes a long way toward explaining shootings like Philando Castile and Justine Diamond.

Yeah. I understand and sympathize that the threat of being attacked by an armed suspect is very real. It's just not omnipresent.

A few years back, I got pulled over in a bustling beach town for some trivial thing, an overdue inspection sticker or something. Two cops came out, one at each window. The one at my driver's side seemed ok and did the talking, but the one at my passenger window literally was in a semi crouch with his hand hovering over his sidearm. I initially thought he was joking around, because it was such an overreaction. But no, he was really alarmed and I have no idea why.
 
And no this doesn't give people carte blanch to ignore simple concepts like reasonable and appropriate force and de-escalation.

It just removes them as a legal obligation. Like the guy who legally did nothing wrong in Texas who mistakenly thought the guy who mugged him got into a truck and shot it and killed an 8 year old girl. Nothing in that behavior thar is fundamentally criminal.
 
Just as a FYI - The majority of Americans don't own a firearm. https://www.statista.com/statistics...eholds-in-the-united-states-owning-a-firearm/ Which does make the number of guns owned even more astonishing.

That aside, there is very much a cultural difference, even looking back to when we didn't have strict gun laws we didn't have a high percentage of the population owning guns - probably because of the expense more than anything. The first gun licences in the UK were introduced to raise revenue for the government not to restrict gun ownership, you didn't need a licence to buy a gun, you needed a licence to keep a gun, just like you didn't need a licence to buy a dog but needed one to keep a dog.

The last notable change (after the Dunblane 1996 massacre) to further restrict gun ownership reduced the number of people owning firearms by an estimated 45,000 to 60,000. A statistic I used to use was something like "Prior to Dunblane there were around 3 million people legally owning fireamrs, afterwards there were still around 3 million people legally owning firearms".

"As at 31 March 2022, 539,212 people held a firearm and or shotgun certificate..." and that is just E&W. Add in Scotland and NI and it will be closer to 3/4 of a million.

https://www.gov.uk/government/stati...es-england-and-wales-april-2021-to-march-2022

I remember taking possession of a number of handguns after Dunblane, but not a mass surrender of licences.
 
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Four or five years ago, I joined a social site called Next Door, which is supposed to keep people in touch with their neighbors. I only joined because I was on our homeowners association board and thought it would keep me informed about what was going on in the neighborhood and surrounding community. I was expecting stuff like lost/found pets, free couches, yard sales, questions about pool passes and who to contact to get dead trees taken down or the best plumber to fix a clogged toiled. And there was quite a bit of that. But then the axiom about half the population being dumber than the average idiot reared its ugly head. I was really put off by the number of people airing their angry political views and/or bickering with each other over petty grievances with neighbors, and soon I was largely ignoring the site. Then, if I recall correctly, another board member called my attention to a post. In the next neighborhood over, someone had posted a security camera video from their home. The video showed a black man whom I'd guess to have been between 35 and 40, wearing a grey hooded sweatshirt, walking up to their door at around 6:40 am. The motion sensor porch light came on while he was still on the walkway. The light coming on caused no reaction from him. He continued walking casually up onto the porch. His hands were in the front pocket of his sweatshirt (it was a chilly morning), and as he approached the front door he took his right hand out and extended his finger forward as though he was about to ring the bell. But then he hesitated almost imperceptibly, lowered his hand as he turned on his heel and walked, still in a relaxed, unhurried manner, back down the walk and out of sight. This looked for all the world to me like someone who was about to ring the doorbell, realized he was at the wrong house, and left. I can't say why he was there, but there are numerous legitimate reasons for him to have walked up to that house. He could have been giving a coworker or friend a ride to work, for instance. Then I started reading through the comments and I was utterly appalled by the blatant racism and stupidity. So many people were convinced that he was there to do some evil, and was frightened away by the light. But as I said, the light hadn't had any affect on his stride. He continued walking for several seconds after it came on. He didn't run away, he left as casually as he'd arrived. One woman even convinced herself that she could see "a gun in his pocket". After reading that, I must have run that short video twenty times looking for any sign of a gun and could see nothing. Others made tough-guy remarks worthy of a crappy action movie, talking about how lucky that guy was that he hadn't approached their house. No one used any blatant racist slurs, but the racist dog-whistles were shrill enough.

That's when I unregistered from Next Door.
 
Thanks. That was a more direct answer to my question. Is it common for UK people to know someone who has farmland and gives casual shooting permissions? I live in an area with a ton of farmland (NJ is actually called The Garden State) and firearm discharging is pretty tightly restricted, outside of highly regulated hunting seasons. The idea of blasting away on private property would bring Mr Policeman there right quick. There might be three places within a 80 mile radius where you can shoot skeet, and those are tightly regulated too.

{ETA: there are four, and in an 80 mile +/- diameter, not radius. Three are regulated county ranges, and one is a crazy large parcel that fits discharging range regulations. The reason we can only hunt with shotguns is that my State is densely populated any pretty flat, and rifle rounds easily travel to populated areas}

Vermin control is a common reason to possess a firearm, so I suspect it is not difficult to find somewhere to shoot. In most instances, the local police officer would get a phone call to let them know about any shooting near houses. Lamping for foxes is common.

No, the reason I was confused is that saying "I just want to collect some guns" was a criteria I hadn't heard before, and it seems to render the rest of the reasons pointless.

I suspect there is not the interest in guns, to make collecting common place.

As Darat said, most Americans don't own guns, nor are we "obsessed"with them. The long guns I had were for hunting and occasional plinking. Please don't think most Americans are obsessed because of a loud and obnoxious minority. We don't like them either.

I lived and worked in Boston for a summer as a security guard in 1986 and then stayed with relatives in Connecticut and spend 3 weeks in NY. I was present four times when firearms were drawn or discharged, once on Boston Common as drug dealers were arrested, twice at work and once waiting in a cinema queue in NY. I was not allowed to leave my relatives house to walk to the shops due to twitchy neighbours after some armed home invasions. They had a handgun and shot gun in the house.

Wait, you just described how trivially easy it was, now you are back to saying he would be barred from ownership. Why couldn't he simply say that he wants to start collecting guns? Even one or two is a collection, or the start of one anyway.

A gun has to count as being collectable. It is not allowed to amass an armoury and call it a collection. A collection can be one gun, as in the case of the luger from a surrendered senior Nazi, to around 150 guns, that included one reputedly used at the Battle of Little Big Horn. Collections tend to be historic, or particularly high value collectable guns, such as the famous Purdey shotguns and one had some amazingly carved Spanish shotguns, like people collect Rolex watches, not £30 digital made in China.

I'm asking to get a sense of the practical, real answer, not the canned answer or technically accurate answer. For instance, if the applicant has permission to shoot on a given property, and loses that permission for one reason or another, is his license then revoked? If our intrepid phone sanitizer says he plans to start a rural vermin killing side business, and he doesn't actually do so or gets no clients, does he get to keep his license and gun or are they conditional upon maintaining the initial terms?

If someone loses permission to shoot, they are expected to declare it, they are given time to find somewhere else and if they cannot, they are expected to surrender the gun. If they don't, it will be seized.

If the phone sanitizer gets no work, he is again expected to declare that and surrender. If it is found at renewal time he has not used the gun, it is seized.

The police keep a track of gun use by the amount of ammo purchased, possessed and used. People found to have hardly used their guns in the 5 years between grants/renewals, they are encouraged to surrender and can have their weapons seized.
 
Yeah. I understand and sympathize that the threat of being attacked by an armed suspect is very real. It's just not omnipresent.

A few years back, I got pulled over in a bustling beach town for some trivial thing, an overdue inspection sticker or something. Two cops came out, one at each window. The one at my driver's side seemed ok and did the talking, but the one at my passenger window literally was in a semi crouch with his hand hovering over his sidearm. I initially thought he was joking around, because it was such an overreaction. But no, he was really alarmed and I have no idea why.

I don't understand the near worship of police and military figures among some authoritarian-minded types. I have some good friends who have been cops. Their great guys, and fair, rational people. The one I mentioned above was even involved in a police shooting. He and a few others responded to a domestic call involving a man with a gun. He was in an alley, and there were houses all around. The man had the gun pointed down, and they were, according to my friend, imploring him to drop the gun. But he raised it and pointed it right at them, and he had to shoot. He assumes that it was 'suicide by cop'. He said he'd had PTSD symptoms for years after that, and it took a long time for him to get to a point where he could even talk about it. There were numerous witnesses and there was never any question about the justification of their action, but it still haunted him none the less.

But I have another friend, my wife's cousin, in fact, who was a police officer in a medium size Midwest town. He quit because he said his department was filled with cops who were just ********. He now works for the DOJ.
 
Next Door is the most insane social media platform and it's not even close.

...and bloodthirsty.

There seem to be any number of people on Nextdoor who just seem to be itching to shoot someone. Like they want a home invasion so they can prove their mettle by killing the intruder.

People are blatantly and proudly wildly paranoid.

Nextdoor is good for lost pets though.:cool:
 
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Around here it's near literally all

- There's a suspicious car/person that is in absolutely on way actually suspecious.
- What species of snake is this? Never mind I already killed it.
- Missing pets.

In equal ratios.
 
...and bloodthirsty.

There seem to be any number of people on Nextdoor who just seem to be itching to shoot someone. Like they want a home invasion so they can prove their mettle by killing the intruder.

People and blatantly and proudly wildly paranoid.

Nextdoor is good for lost pets though.:cool:

Reading through hundreds of shooting incidents, I very much get that impression as well. It is not just the public, but lots of cops. They appear to want to shoot someone, to fortify their tough guy image and look for any excuse to do so.
 
Around here it's near literally all

- There's a suspicious car/person that is in absolutely on way actually suspecious.- What species of snake is this? Never mind I already killed it.
- Missing pets.

In equal ratios.

The Uber/Lyft drivers routinely trigger them. Driver drops off the fare, pulls away. Drives for a block or so and pulls over again to safely use the phone app to select the next fare. TRIGGERING!!! THERE'S A STRANGE CAR PARKED IN FRONT OF MY HOUSE AND THEN IT PULLED AWAY AND THE COPS DID NOTHING!!!

Then during the holiday season UPS and Fedex hire extra drivers and rent unmarked trucks. Some of those actually have been shot at by brave home defenders.
 
And literally everything is a drug deal or gang sign.

Few weeks back city works, in like actual City of Jacksonville branded utility trucks, drove around the neighborhood and spray painted a small orange symbol on certain drain openings, I'm assuming marking them for some kind of check or maintance or whatnot. Like I saw them do it and I work all day and I pay zero attention to the neighborhood and I still noticed them. No way the busy-bodies didn't.

But the next day "OMG is this a gang sign? Time to move! Gang signs all over the neighborhood!"
 
My wife was on our beach town's little Facebook brownshirt thing. There was a phone video once posted of what was described as a possible child predator. I kid you not: it featured me and my daughter going up to the beach for a surf check.
 
And literally everything is a drug deal or gang sign.

Few weeks back city works, in like actual City of Jacksonville branded utility trucks, drove around the neighborhood and spray painted a small orange symbol on certain drain openings, I'm assuming marking them for some kind of check or maintance or whatnot. Like I saw them do it and I work all day and I pay zero attention to the neighborhood and I still noticed them. No way the busy-bodies didn't.

But the next day "OMG is this a gang sign? Time to move! Gang signs all over the neighborhood!"

I snoozed an elderly aunt on Facebook who was constantly sharing stuff about how gang member initiations involve driving around at night flashing their high beams at other cars until someone flashes back, then they have to kill that person to get into the gang.
 
- There's a suspicious car/person that is in absolutely no way actually suspecious.
A while back a notoriously obstreperous ******* in our neighborhood called the cops on a "suspicious vehicle" parked across from his house. It was a minivan with two middle aged women in it waiting by the school bus stop to pick up their kids because it was pouring down Biblical amounts of rain.
 
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news..._medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1681995688

"A man whose girlfriend was shot dead after they pulled into the wrong driveway in upstate New York said their “high hopes and plans” were shattered in a single, brutal moment.
“I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her,” Blake Walsh, 19, told NBC of his girlfriend, Kaylin Gillis. “My world was taken from me.”
An attorney for the man charged with murdering Gillis, 20, argued that Kevin Monahan, 65, didn’t mean to harm anyone when he fired a gun from his porch."

What an odd claim, shooting at someone and then claiming they did not mean to do them any harm.
 
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news..._medium&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1681995688

"A man whose girlfriend was shot dead after they pulled into the wrong driveway in upstate New York said their “high hopes and plans” were shattered in a single, brutal moment.
“I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her,” Blake Walsh, 19, told NBC of his girlfriend, Kaylin Gillis. “My world was taken from me.”
An attorney for the man charged with murdering Gillis, 20, argued that Kevin Monahan, 65, didn’t mean to harm anyone when he fired a gun from his porch."

What an odd claim, shooting at someone and then claiming they did not mean to do them any harm.

The Famed Alec Baldwin defense.
 

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