Would Religion still continue if....

[Franko]

Upchurch:
In this specific case, the direction is the same for all frames of reference, but they could be different if moving in anything other than one dimension.

Say what?

Franko:
In other words from my perspective aren’t the two ships traveling away from each other at a rate Faster than the speed of light?

Upchurch:
The question you're asking is what is the relative speed between the east and west ships. You're trying to make it a three frame problem when speed is only applicable between two frames. with the three frames you've given, you can only talk about the speeds between each set of frames. However, given SR, we can from one frame, calculate the relative speeds between any other set of frames, given the relative speeds of each frame to the first frame.

Franko:
So if there are two photons being simultaneously emitted from the surface of the sun in opposite directions then you are claiming that they are moving apart from each other at less than 2xC?

Upchurch:
I just showed they are moving apart at half that speed above. Do you see an error in my math?

Franko:
Does that mean it takes photons longer than 8 minutes to go from the Sun to the Earth, because I am fairly certain the sun emits photons in ALL directions ALL the time?

Upchurch:
Well, I know that 8 minutes is an approximation, but no it doesn't take longer than that approximation. And I am also fairly certain that the sun emits photons in all directions at all times.

The Earth is approximately 93 million miles form the Sun. The speed of light (“C”) is about 186,000 miles per/sec. 93,000,000 divided by 186,000 = 500 seconds divided 60 = 8.333 minutes for light form the Sun to reach the Earth. Now, how can the light be reaching the Earth that quickly when there are also photons being emitted from the opposite side of the Sun and traveling in the opposite direction at the speed of light?

Look, imagine that there is another Planet the same distance from the Sun as Earth on the opposite side of the solar system. The Two planets would be approximately 186 million miles apart (93 million x 2), but light from the Sun reaches them both in 8.33 minutes. Obviously the photons headed off to the two different planets are moving apart from each other at twice the speed of light.

Are you still claiming something different Upchurch?

Franko:
So if the photons are traveling at 300,000 km/sec each, then in 10 seconds how far apart from the Sun will each photon be, and how far part from each other will each photon be?

I would say that in 10 seconds the two photons will each be 3,000,000 km from the Sun, and 6,000,000 km from each other. What EXACTLY are You claiming?

Upchurch:
Hm... Interesting question, which is actually beyond the scope of SR. Due to length contraction, one could approximate through limits that, from each photon's frame of reference, the relative velocity between the two photons is 1c. Special Relativity calculations of length contraction only work for velocities less than 1c. You can make an approximation using limits, however. So, from the photon's frame of reference, after "10 seconds" (I'm not sure that's valid to say), the photons would be 0 light seconds apart. Again, that's a tentative answer based on incomplete information.

I agree that they would be an amount of km greater than zero from the sun, but I can't say what they would be from each other, as per above.

So you are claiming that it takes Light Far longer than 8.333 minutes to reach the Earth from the Sun?

 

[Upchurch]

What EXACTLY are You claiming?

Dammit. Missed that word "exact" again.

Okay, length contraction is defined by:

l' = lo / gamma

Where,
l' is the contracted length
lo is the rest length
gamma = 1 / Sqrt( 1- v^2 / c^2 )

Note: when v = 0, gamma = 1 so l' = lo.

as v increases, gamma increases. as v approaches c, gamma approaches infinity.

So, as v approaches 1c then

l' = lo / inifinity

l' = 0

 

[Upchurch]

Not getting the whole Relativity concept, are ya?

Say what?

The example that we're talking about occurs in one dimension. That is, they travel along a straight line from one another. In other words, you can draw a stright line between ship-Earth-ship or photon-sun-photon. If it were different, it gets messier mathematically.

The Earth is approximately 93 million miles form the Sun. The speed of light (“C”) is about 186,000 miles per/sec. 93,000,000 divided by 186,000 = 500 seconds divided 60 = 8.333 minutes for light form the Sun to reach the Earth. Now, how can the light be reaching the Earth that quickly when there are also photons being emitted from the opposite side of the Sun and traveling in the opposite direction at the speed of light?

Well, first off, you're using Newtonian mechanics to calculate things traveling at relativistic speeds.

Newtonian mechanics: u = v + v'
Special Relativistic mechanics: u = (v + v') / (1 + (v v') / c^2)

Second, the paradox that you're highlighting (that the speed of light is absolute but doesn't work in Newtonian mechanics) is the same one that led Einstein to come up with Special Relativity. Newtonian mechanics is a good approximation at low speeds, but gets worse and worse as speeds approach 1.0c.

So you are claiming that it takes Light Far longer than 8.333 minutes to reach the Earth from the Sun?

Again, given approximation, nope.

Newton was close, but ultimately, all he came up with was a good approximation for a specific situation. If you take Special Relativitistic mechanics at low speeds, they agree with Newton, but Newton fails at high speed. He was close, but he was ultimately wrong.

 

[Tricky]

Upchimp,

Look it is a simple question:

Two photons leave the sun heading in OPPOSITE directions. Assuming we both agree that the speed of light is approximately 300,000 km/sec how far from the Sun will each photon be in 10 seconds?

Now, how far will the two photons be from each other in 10 seconds?

With respect to the sun, they may have travelled 10 seconds, but with respect to each other they have not. This is what is meant by time dilation. We covered this in introductory physics back when I was in college.

 

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Franko,

I’m simply asking some basic questions Stimpson. I don’t see why you are getting so worked up, but I am touched that you are so concerned about my reputation.

Upchurch answered your question. You ignored his answer, and proceeded to ask the question again. Like I said, you are making a fool out of yourself.

Dr. Stupid

 

[Upchurch]

Upchurch,

I have already demonstrated this in an earlier post in this thread. However, I agree that it probably doesn't hurt to go through it again.

Sorry, Lucy. Didn't mean to step on your toes.

 

[Franko]

Tricky: (A-Theist (not interested in TRUTH))
With respect to the sun, they may have travelled 10 seconds, but with respect to each other they have not. This is what is meant by time dilation. We covered this in introductory physics back when I was in college.

Is that your idea of an objective numerical answer mystic-boy?

Look it is a simple question:

Two photons leave the sun heading in OPPOSITE directions. Assuming we both agree that the speed of light is approximately 300,000 km/sec how far from the Sun will each photon be in 10 seconds?

Now, how far will the two photons be from each other in 10 seconds?

 

[Upchurch]

Did you catch my approximation above?

 

[Franko]

Stimpson: (panicky)
Upchurch answered your question. You ignored his answer, and proceeded to ask the question again. Like I said, you are making a fool out of yourself.

No, I gave an answer. I said that the photons would be 3,000,000 km from the Sun each, and they would be 6,000,000 apart from each other, but Not you or Upchimp or Trixy has actually bothered to try and answer the Question yourselves. You just keep intoning how “stupid” it is.

Just like a bunch of A-Theists … so predictable …

 

[Upchurch]

but Not you or Upchurch or Trixy has actually bothered to try and answer the Question yourselves.

um....

Originally posted by Upchurch

Okay, length contraction is defined by:

l' = lo / gamma

Where,
l' is the contracted length
lo is the rest length
gamma = 1 / Sqrt( 1- v^2 / c^2 )

Note: when v = 0, gamma = 1 so l' = lo.

as v increases, gamma increases. as v approaches c, gamma approaches infinity.

So, as v approaches 1c then

l' = lo / inifinity

l' = 0

Not sure how else to point out my answer to the question any clearer.

THE RELATIVE DISTANCE FROM THE PHOTON'S REFERENCE FRAME IS ZERO KILOMETERS.

Did you see it that time?

 

[Franko]

Upchimp,

Look it is a simple question:

Two photons leave the sun heading in OPPOSITE directions. Assuming we both agree that the speed of light is approximately 300,000 km/sec how far from the Sun will each photon be in 10 seconds?

Now, how far will the two photons be from each other in 10 seconds?

 

[Upchurch]

Am I on his ignore list or what? Does anyone else not see my answer in capitalized bold letters?

 

[Franko]

Upchimp (or Stimpson, or trix/Mrc)

Give me your answer in Kilometers or miles. You don't have to be exact, just the approximate distances should do.

 

[Upchurch]

Give me your answer in Kilometers or miles. You don't have to be exact, just the approximate distances should do.

0 KILOMETERS IN THE PHOTON'S FRAME OF REFERENCE

(someone needs their eyesight checked)

 

[Tricky]

0 KILOMETERS IN THE PHOTON'S FRAME OF REFERENCE

(someone needs their eyesight checked)

Sorry Franko. You get an "F" in physics, an "F" in math and an "F" in reading comprehension.

 

[Franko]

Upchimp: (A-Theist)
So, even though each photon is traveling 1c relative to the sun, they are also traveling 1c relative to each other.

Franko: (Logical Deist)
So if the photons are traveling at 300,000 km/sec each, then in 10 seconds how far apart from the Sun will each photon be, and how far part from each other will each photon be?

I would say that in 10 seconds the two photons will each be 3,000,000 km from the Sun, and 6,000,000 km from each other. What EXACTLY are You claiming?

Upchimp: (A-Theist)
I just showed they are moving apart at half that speed above. Do you see an error in my math?

I agree that they would be an amount of km greater than zero from the sun, but I can't say what they would be from each other, as per above.

Franko:
The Earth is approximately 93 million miles form the Sun. The speed of light (“C”) is about 186,000 miles per/sec. 93,000,000 divided by 186,000 = 500 seconds divided 60 = 8.333 minutes for light form the Sun to reach the Earth. Now, how can the light be reaching the Earth that quickly when there are also photons being emitted from the opposite side of the Sun and traveling in the opposite direction at the speed of light?

Look, imagine that there is another Planet the same distance from the Sun as Earth on the opposite side of the solar system. The Two planets would be approximately 186 million miles apart (93 million x 2), but light from the Sun reaches them both in 8.33 minutes. Obviously the photons headed off to the two different planets are moving apart from each other at twice the speed of light.

Are you still claiming something different Upchurch?

Upchimp: (Evading the point)
Well, first off, you're using Newtonian mechanics to calculate things traveling at relativistic speeds.

Newtonian mechanics: u = v + v'
Special Relativistic mechanics: u = (v + v') / (1 + (v v') / c^2)

Second, the paradox that you're highlighting (that the speed of light is absolute but doesn't work in Newtonian mechanics) is the same one that led Einstein to come up with Special Relativity. Newtonian mechanics is a good approximation at low speeds, but gets worse and worse as speeds approach 1.0c.

Franko:
Look it is a simple question:

Two photons leave the sun heading in OPPOSITE directions. Assuming we both agree that the speed of light is approximately 300,000 km/sec how far from the Sun will each photon be in 10 seconds?

Now, how far will the two photons be from each other in 10 seconds?

Upchimp: (Dodging)
Did you catch my approximation above?

Franko:
No, I gave an answer. I said that the photons would be 3,000,000 km from the Sun each, and they would be 6,000,000 apart from each other, but Not you or Upchimp or Trixy has actually bothered to try and answer the Question yourselves. You just keep intoning how “stupid” it is.

Just like a bunch of A-Theists … so predictable …

Upchurch: (A-Theist)
Not sure how else to point out my answer to the question any clearer.

THE RELATIVE DISTANCE FROM THE PHOTON'S REFERENCE FRAME IS ZERO KILOMETERS.

Did you see it that time?

Franko:
Give me your answer in Kilometers or miles. You don't have to be exact, just the approximate distances should do.

Two photons leave the sun heading in OPPOSITE directions. Assuming we both agree that the speed of light is approximately 300,000 km/sec how far from the Sun will each photon be in 10 seconds?

Now, how far will the two photons be from each other in 10 seconds?

Upchimp --THE RELATIVE DISTANCE FROM THE PHOTON'S REFERENCE FRAME IS ZERO KILOMETERS.

So that means that in 10 seconds the photons will still be on the surface of the Sun? Why are you beating around the bush on such a simple question Upchimp? And you nitwits claim to comprehend the “Stochastic” “counter-intuitive nature of QM???

 

[Upchurch]

Okay, one last try, being as specific as I can.

From the sun's reference frame, each photon is 3,000,000 km away from the sun, as per your calculation.

From the photon's reference frame, both the sun and the other photon are 0 km away from the the photon, as per my calculation.

The distance is relative to which reference frame it is observed from. This is what the "Relativity" means in "Special Relativity Theory".

 

[PixyMisa]

Sorry Franko. You get an "F" in physics, an "F" in math and an "F" in reading comprehension.

I thought that Relativity had the LG Gold Star of approval, and it was just Quantum Mechanics that was an evil A-Theist conspiracy. What changed?

 

[c4ts]

I thought that Relativity had the LG Gold Star of approval, and it was just Quantum Mechanics that was an evil A-Theist conspiracy. What changed?

The Newtonian universe, apparently.

 

[Upchurch]

I thought that Relativity had the LD Gold Star of approval, and it was just Quantum Mechanics that was an evil A-Theist conspiracy. What changed?

What I find interesting is that LD's point to Einstien's disbelief of QM but ignore his Theory of Relativity prefering 300+ year old Newtonian mechancis instead.

edited to add:

Maybe that's it. Maybe LD's feel towards modern science the way that the Amish feel towards modern technology?

edited again to fix typos. LG => LD. d'oh.