• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Would pro-colonialists support this?

MikeG said:
Reindeer migration is driven by mosquitoes. The migration of the reindeer is the reason for the life-style of the Sami. Are we really saying that mosquitoes north of the arctic circle are the reason for the caste system in India? Who knew.
Click to expand...

No, the Indian caste system existed before the British arrived on the subcontinent. The mosquitos can't be blamed for that. At worst, the mosquitos can only be blamed for the persistence of the Indian caste system following British colonial rule.

Anyway, let me see if I understand: The arctic mosquito's failure to cure all of India's preexisting conditions during the British colonial period ranks as one of the worst atrocities in history.

Presumably if the Indians had been left to their own devices, they would have gotten rid of their caste system a long time ago. But now that the British have touched their shores, they have become forever after powerless to chart their own destiny.

Kinda makes you wonder how the Brits managed all their own destiny-charting over the centuries.
 
Also, am I the only one amused by the notion that the British were wrong to accommodate and work with the cultural institutions of India? The caste system was already in place when the British arrived. It seems like going along with it was much more culturally sensitive--and practical--than trying to abolish it.
 
theprestige said:
Also, am I the only one amused by the notion that the British were wrong to accommodate and work with the cultural institutions of India? The caste system was already in place when the British arrived. It seems like going along with it was much more culturally sensitive--and practical--than trying to abolish it.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's the way the British thought too, more or less. The problem here is that when they wanted to learn about how Indian society, they went to talk to the literate caste, the Brahmins. The Brahmins, of course, present a worldview where they themselves are in charge, that does not necessarily reflect reality and is not necessarily embraced by society at large, at least not to the degree that they would like. Whereas the British imposed a bueraucracy where these things suddenly became far more "real". And it didn't stop with castes, either, the British had all kinds of ways of categorizing people in India that ended up creating entirely new social tensions (Sikhs became a "Martial people", for example).¨The race-based worldview of the British at the time played a huge role in this, obviously.
 
TubbaBlubba said:
Yes, that's the way the British thought too, more or less. The problem here is that when they wanted to learn about how Indian society, they went to talk to the literate caste, the Brahmins. The Brahmins, of course, present a worldview where they themselves are in charge, that does not necessarily reflect reality and is not necessarily embraced by society at large, at least not to the degree that they would like. Whereas the British imposed a bueraucracy where these things suddenly became far more "real". And it didn't stop with castes, either, the British had all kinds of ways of categorizing people in India that ended up creating entirely new social tensions (Sikhs became a "Martial people", for example).¨The race-based worldview of the British at the time played a huge role in this, obviously.
Click to expand...

The Sikhs being viewed as martial might have something to do with the Anglo Sikh wars being the toughest fighting Britain encountered whilst conquering India.

What about the abolition of suttee? An example of exporting cultural mores? (Boo!)
 
theprestige said:
I bet the "race-based worldview of the British at the time" was actually the same baseline ethno-chauvinism practiced by every nation and people group at the time, including the Indians.
Click to expand...

You could "bet" that, and you would lose.
 
theprestige said:
You're the one saying that the British were especially racist, compared to other people groups at the time. As long as you don't support that claim, I win the bet by default.
Click to expand...

I am saying that the concept of races was a Western peculiarity. This is frankly simply not controversial.
 
TubbaBlubba said:
I am saying that the concept of races was a Western peculiarity. This is frankly simply not controversial.
Click to expand...

Really? There may have been more examples (due to westerners getting around more) but all nations have tended towards chauvinistic ethnic self adulation. To quote about china:

"Racial discrimination by the ruling Han Chinese in Imperial China have been documented by many historical texts, such as the*Hanshu*by*Yan Shigu, where the*Wusun people were referred as...*macaque monkeys."
 
Giz said:
Really? There may have been more examples (due to westerners getting around more) but all nations have tended towards chauvinistic ethnic self adulation.
Click to expand...

Which, of course, is different from the racial theories that developed in the Early Modern Era.

You can occasionally find analogous ideas, but you'll find that the idea of strict racial-biological categories is quite peculiar to the West. Usually the trigger is said to have been suspicions of the sincerity of those converting from Judaism or Islam. It seems to have solidified with the elevation of "scientific" thinking in the 17th century or so.
 
Last edited:
MikeG said:
Reindeer migration is driven by mosquitoes. The migration of the reindeer is the reason for the life-style of the Sami. Are we really saying that mosquitoes north of the arctic circle are the reason for the caste system in India? Who knew.
Click to expand...

Yes and who do you think carried all those mosquito larvae up there and placed them in those seasonal bogs? Hmmm gnomes? This conspiracy goes into deep, deep time. I think, ultimately bottom line we can blame Homo Erectus for his leaving Africa for this.
 
theprestige said:
All we need to address the OP is to stipulate *some* level of quality. Ideally, we'd stipulate based on the assumptions and arguments provided by an actual "pro-colonialist". But since the OP doesn't provide one, and doesn't even bother to articulate or cite their beliefs, we're free to stipulate whatever we want.
Click to expand...

I already gave you two examples of apologists for imperialists. Here they are again if you need more spoonfeeding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSnJSUU_7q0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ma7LWWvwMQM
 
One can find any manner of crazyness on youtube. Most of it is meaningless.

Do you have anything by anyone in writing?
Click to expand...

Is not just something on youtube. Its from a main talk show on the BBC.
 
theprestige said:
No, the Indian caste system existed before the British arrived on the subcontinent.
Click to expand...

It did, but it was localised and even when it was in place the effects varied significantly from region to region, princely state to princely state. The British, as is our way, standardised and codified the caste system and implemented it throughout India.

Were the British responsible for creating the caste system ? No

Were the British responsible for implementing the caste system throughout British India ? There's an argument that can be made.
 
I read somewhere a few years ago that there are now more billionaires in India than in Russia. I don't know if it's due to internet fraud.

There is a bit about India in that book Russian Outlook published in 1947 by Lieutenant- General Sir Giffard Martel:

We now come to the case which we have had for a long time in India, namely an Asiatic people with a Western leader. The latter nearly always makes the mistake of treating the people as though they were Westerners. He takes little trouble over his supporters and much trouble over pleasing his opponents.

That has been our fundamental mistake in India. Those of us who have been in India have all seen this happen. Some loyal men were strong supporters of the British Raj. They were hardly given any reward, but noisy supporters of Congress often had a great deal done for them. The people saw that it did not pay to support the Raj. They too joined the Congress Party.That has been the main cause of all our troubles in India.

In Russia the best of the loyal people are given some reward. What happens to the disloyal people is so dreadful that there are none, or at least they do not appear in the open.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom