Would pro-colonialists support this?

[theprestige]

The only people who are pro-colonialists are those who will be in power, wealthy or able to push their agenda (such as converting others to their chosen religion). No pro-colonialist will be happy being the one ruled over.

If those who desire the power that comes with colonialism, find a place being the alien overlord's local rulers, or the wealthy gets to keep their wealth and the religious their religion, they may tolerate and cooperate with the alien rule. That is what happened in places such as India, where the local rulers were kept on board with a share of the power etc.

Easy to say that about pro-colonialists you have never met, and about whose actual arguments and positions you are ignorant.

 

[Giz]

The only people who are pro-colonialists are those who will be in power, wealthy or able to push their agenda (such as converting others to their chosen religion). No pro-colonialist will be happy being the one ruled over.

For a perhaps more positive look at pro-colonialists... consider the afrancesado ("Spanish and Portuguese partisans of Enlightenment ideas, Liberalism, or the French Revolution, who were supporters of the French occupation of Iberia (Portugal and Spain) and of the First French Empire.")... goals of Enlightenment ideas and Liberalism which, given the Spanish Inquisition was around at the time, seem rather reasonable...

 

[theprestige]

Our current emperor is an ass. We'd be much better off as subjects of the emperor next door.

 

[Nessie]

Easy to say that about pro-colonialists you have never met, and about whose actual arguments and positions you are ignorant.

If aliens were to rule over the earth and make it a significantly better place, I would still be uncomfortable as I value my freedom to make mistakes.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I... might go for that, if our new alien overlords managed it about as well as the British managed India. But if it's more of a Soviet bloc/Warsaw pact arrangement? Boop to that.

Because it's not as if millions upon millions died due to British rule or anything. Or as if the trade policies imposed by the British severely harmed India's native development. And native industry certainly wasn't destroyed.

Compared to China, the economy of India is horribly stagnant. Its exports, IIRC, look like those of China 50 years ago or Japan 150 years ago. Rice and silk are still significant exports along with raw natural resources.

Meanwhile China's biggest exports are computers and cars.

 

[MikeG]

Because it's not as if millions upon millions died due to British rule or anything. Or as if the trade policies imposed by the British severely harmed India's native development. And native industry certainly wasn't destroyed.

Compared to China, the economy of India is horribly stagnant. Its exports, IIRC, look like those of China 50 years ago or Japan 150 years ago. Rice and silk are still significant exports along with raw natural resources.

Meanwhile China's biggest exports are computers and cars.

I think you need to learn a little more about India, TB. Your ignorance is going to be challenged by India itself over the next decade as they continue to make rapid economic progress, based on highly educated people being churned out of their world class universities in huge numbers. China might be selling computers, but it will be Indians programming them. You also need to learn a little about British Colonialism, which included economically significant parts of China, and ended in India some 70 years ago.

 

[Henri McPhee]

This is the pure unadulterated historical truth. It's not racist:

From that 'The Welensky Story' book:

Lord Malvern described this British "change of heart" with characteristic pertinence: "In spite of its high moral tone, British policy has the underlying belief that if it gave way quickly to Black nationalism, trade links would be forged with the African countries".......

His deputy Prime Minister, Sir Malcolm Barrow, has said: "We accept the fact that Africans must eventually govern and we regard it as part of White trusteeship to train them for that responsibility - but not to permit African government until they are fully capable. Rhodesia is too close to the Congo for its people not to be aware - more so than the British or American public - of the tragic results of abdicating governments to natives before they are fully capable".

 

[Giz]

I think you need to learn a little more about India, TB. Your ignorance is going to be challenged by India itself over the next decade as they continue to make rapid economic progress, based on highly educated people being churned out of their world class universities in huge numbers. China might be selling computers, but it will be Indians programming them. You also need to learn a little about British Colonialism, which included economically significant parts of China, and ended in India some 70 years ago.

Another major factor is that the Indian government's policies post independence promoted economic stagnation and it was only once they started to reform c. 1990 that things picked up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_India#Pre-liberalisation_period_(1947–1991)


(TLDR: newly independent country which copies Soviet central planning shouldn't blame Britain for economic stagnation)

 

[theprestige]

This is the pure unadulterated historical truth. It's not racist

Translation: It's racist AF.

 

[Craig B]

This is the pure unadulterated historical truth. It's not racist:

From that 'The Welensky Story' book:

Or in another judgement of the book

Mr. Allighan’s appallingly written, inflated, and evasive book gives us little assistance, and indeed only damages the interests it seeks so transparently to further.​

 

[The Don]

This is the pure unadulterated historical truth. It's not racist:

From that 'The Welensky Story' book:

I guess it's true insofar as the author wrote those words and I guess we should be grateful that you've taken the rare step of at least identifying the book it came from if not where in that book.

I realise that you are a huge Welensky fanboi because he, like you, was of the opinion that black people lacked the capacity to govern but his views were stated 60+ years ago and were viewed by many as being racist and outdated even then.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

China might be selling computers, but it will be Indians programming them.

The 8% of Indians who are university graduate will be the backbones of the economy?

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Another major factor is that the Indian government's policies post independence promoted economic stagnation and it was only once they started to reform c. 1990 that things picked up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_India#Pre-liberalisation_period_(1947–1991)


(TLDR: newly independent country which copies Soviet central planning shouldn't blame Britain for economic stagnation)

Yes, poor use of protectionism resulting in corruption was a big issue. But the need for that protectionism was a result of British policies harming growth of domestic industry.

 

[MikeG]

The 8% of Indians who are university graduate will be the backbones of the economy?

Argument by sarcasm and rolleyes. Hmmmmmmm......

But yes, they will.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Argument by sarcasm and rolleyes. Hmmmmmmm......

But yes, they will.

Let me know when their contribution eclipses exports of commodities Let alone the, oh, 400% GDP growth they need to compete with China.

Look, I'm not saying that India is beyond recovery, they are clearly showing signs of improvement in recent decades. But to claim British rule in India was beneficial, with all the demonstrable harm it did and the obvious issues with "colonial economics", is completely absurd not to say abhorrent.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Oh, and never mind the whole "exploitation and reification/rigidification of the caste system" thing.

 

[MikeG]

Look, I'm not saying that India is beyond recovery, they are clearly showing signs of improvement in recent decades.

Look out for when reality hits. You clearly heard it here first, and don't yet know how to adjust your thinking.

Here's something else you might not have thought about: Sub-Saharan Africa is growing faster than anywhere else in the world. But how can that be? So much of it was British Empire.

But to claim British rule in India was beneficial, with all the demonstrable harm it did and the obvious issues with "colonial economics", is completely absurd not to say abhorrent.

The last resort of those with nothing to say: the glorious strawman. This pile is pretty huge. Please point out anyone in the thread who has said that British rule in India was beneficial. Please apologise when you can't.

Let me know when their contribution eclipses exports of commodities Let alone the, oh, 400% GDP growth they need to compete with China.

You're going to carry on with the rolleyes thing? OK, you can talk to yourself.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Look out for when reality hits. You clearly heard it here first, and don't yet know how to adjust your thinking.

You seem really upset that I stepped on your fantasies about the British Empire not being that bad after all. What in the world makes you think I didn't know that India, in recent decades, has shown signs of its economy improving? That changes nothing about the destruction the British wrought. Sorry, the colonialism perpetrated by the British was among the worst atrocities in history.

Here's something else you might not have thought about: Sub-Saharan Africa is growing faster than anywhere else in the world. But how can that be? So much of it was British Empire.

And it would have been far, far better off, had the trans-atlantic slave trade not wrought immense havoc to its demographics in the Early Modern era, and that's not even getting into the horrors of 19th century African colonies. Wreaking immense havoc =/= Completely eliminating any hope of recovery for all foreseeable time.

The last resort of those with nothing to say: the glorious strawman. This pile is pretty huge. Please point out anyone in the thread who has said that British rule in India was beneficial. Please apologise when you can't.

So, what's the proposition, again?

We give up economic and political self-determination in the mid-term, in exchange for access to advanced technologies, an interplanetary supply chain, and improved systems of social organization; with a possibility of return to self-rule somewhere down the line, and membership in a galactic alliance of (perhaps forcibly) like-minded civilizations, prospering as client states of a powerful hegemonizing sponsor civilization?

I... might go for that, if our new alien overlords managed it about as well as the British managed India. But if it's more of a Soviet bloc/Warsaw pact arrangement? Boop to that.

You're going to carry on with the rolleyes thing? OK, you can talk to yourself.

How's your assegai collection coming along?

 

[Aber]

Sorry, the colonialism perpetrated by the British was among the worst atrocities in history.

Would you care to provide your ranking of historical atrocities?

 

[MikeG]

You seem really upset that I stepped on your fantasies about the British Empire not being that bad after all........

This is pathetic, TB. If you can't debate people's actual positions and arguments then this may not be the forum for you.

I haven't said one single thing is support of the British Empire. I loath it. I wish it had never happened. I am a huge lover of India and Africa, and to see ignorant denigration of either is what gets my goat......and your sneering, patronising rolleyes-infested gibberish denigrating India is what has upset me, not anything you have said about the loathsome British Empire. See if you can make a post in this thread without denigrating a third world country or piling up a huge mountain of straw about other posters, and I am sure that there will be others here who may wish to engage you. As for me.....that's it.