Would pro-colonialists support this?

[Garrison]

Or that many of the independent movements were sponsored by the eastern bloc. To take Zimbabwe as as example, the only plausible successors to white Rhodesian rule were Joshua Nkomo (backed by the USSR ) and Mugabe (backed by communist China). Not the best recipe for a fledgling democracy.

The fact that so many of the former colonial nations were transformed into Cold War battlegrounds by what you can argue were the new imperial powers in the world was probably the last straw for a lot of those countries.

 

[MikeG]

I'd just add a broad over-view here. There is still poor governance around in Africa and South America, but it is so much better than it was. More and more countries are peacefully transferring power at elections, and improving the quality of the way they run the show. The Ibrahim index records this good progress, at least in Africa. There are far fewer dictatorships than there were, and far fewer coups. Part of the credit for this must go to international and regional organisations such as the AU, and SADC.

 

[dann]

That is all long before the EEC/EC/EU instituted freedom of movement for its citizens.

But Henri McPhee remembers somebody saying something!!!

 

[theprestige]

But Henri McPhee remembers somebody saying something!!!

He also agrees with a point not in dispute!

 

[Craig B]

Or that many of the independent movements were sponsored by the eastern bloc. To take Zimbabwe as as example, the only plausible successors to white Rhodesian rule were Joshua Nkomo (backed by the USSR ) and Mugabe (backed by communist China). Not the best recipe for a fledgling democracy.

There are precedents. The successor to British colonial rule in North America was sponsored by the absolute monarch Louis XVI of France.

 

[Garrison]

There are precedents. The successor to British colonial rule in North America was sponsored by the absolute monarch Louis XVI of France.

Of course that was an example where the colonial power didn't rule a native population, they basically drove them from their land and established an offshoot of their own culture on foreign soil.

 

[ddt]

Or that many of the independent movements were sponsored by the eastern bloc. To take Zimbabwe as as example, the only plausible successors to white Rhodesian rule were Joshua Nkomo (backed by the USSR ) and Mugabe (backed by communist China). Not the best recipe for a fledgling democracy.

It is a so much better recipe when the West supports a mutiny against a democratically elected leader, murders that leader and installs its own strongman.

 

[ddt]

But Henri McPhee remembers somebody saying something!!!

 

[Border Reiver]

I remember years ago somebody saying that the reason the French disbanded their empire was because there was a law at the time that the inhabitants of the French colonies were French citizens. He seemed to think that when the European Political Union was founded that this would be impracticable and a decision was taken behind closed doors to prevent any invasion of African people into Europe.

People in Algeria now want visas to settle in France. I notice Israel is now trying to force many African illegal immigrants to leave, many from Eritrea. The same kind of thinking could have applied to the British Empire. Internet fraud has flourished in Nigeria and India since independence

I'll leave the issue of Internet fraud in Nigeria and India alone, but I will point out that the French did not "disband" their colonial empire, they fought rather hard to hold onto it, or were you not paying attention to how Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos arose from the ashes of French Indo-China...

Also, Algeria was, prior to independence, part of Metropolitan France. None of the other colonies were. That made the persons born in pre-independence Algeria French citizens, with legislators in the French government, etc. That may give people born in pre-independence Algeria some claim to French citizenship.

 

[Hans]

Nigeria became independent in 1960. India in 1947. I have a funny feeling the internet wasn't actually around back then.

They had the teletype internet then......and telephones

 

[MikeG]

It is a so much better recipe when the West supports a mutiny against a democratically elected leader, murders that leader and installs its own strongman.

Yeah, that turned out well, didn't it. The current strongman is the son of the guy who led the rebellion which happened to succeed as Mobuto's health was failing. I travelled through Zaire when Mobuto was still in power: it was eye-opening. It was a kleptocracy at every single level.

 

[The Don]

People in Algeria now want visas to settle in France.

And some people in the U.S. want visas to settle in the U.K. (and vice versa) - what's your point ?

Aside from your oft-stated contention that brown and people aren't fit to govern, is there any point to this thread ?

 

[Craig B]

And some people in the U.S. want visas to settle in the U.K.

A better example is perhaps Ireland which became independent, effectively, a century ago. Since then many Irish people have come to live in the U.K., often to escape the restrictions imposed by the state religion which prevailed intrusively in Ireland until very recent years.

Up to its secession from the Empire, Ireland was part of the UK, as Algeria was of France.

Of all the peoples in the world, I believe the indigenous Irish have the least melanin.

 

[Henri McPhee]

I remember reading a very old book once which said that if Ireland became independent then Britain would become a third rate country. I think that has turned out to be true.

I met a descendant of Clive of India once, with others, who is now probably dead. I was expecting him to be a Colonel Blimp type, but he seemed to be a nice chap and very on the ball.

 

[theprestige]

So, what's the proposition, again?

We give up economic and political self-determination in the mid-term, in exchange for access to advanced technologies, an interplanetary supply chain, and improved systems of social organization; with a possibility of return to self-rule somewhere down the line, and membership in a galactic alliance of (perhaps forcibly) like-minded civilizations, prospering as client states of a powerful hegemonizing sponsor civilization?

I... might go for that, if our new alien overlords managed it about as well as the British managed India. But if it's more of a Soviet bloc/Warsaw pact arrangement? Boop to that.

 

[The Don]

I remember reading a very old book once

The continued inability to provide any kind of reference for anything you've read online or in a book is quite tedious IMO.

which said that if Ireland became independent then Britain would become a third rate country. I think that has turned out to be true.

What are the metrics for a third rate country ?

What evidence do you have that Ireland meets these metrics ?

I met a descendant of Clive of India once, with others, who is now probably dead. I was expecting him to be a Colonel Blimp type, but he seemed to be a nice chap and very on the ball.

So what ?

Maybe your preconceptions were wrong. Maybe he was a Colonel Blimp type and you failed to spot is. Maybe you were just plain wrong to expect any specific kind of behaviour because he was a (presumably somewhat distant) descendant of Clive of India.

 

[Dave Rogers]

So, what's the proposition, again?

We give up economic and political self-determination in the mid-term, in exchange for access to advanced technologies, an interplanetary supply chain, and improved systems of social organization; with a possibility of return to self-rule somewhere down the line, and membership in a galactic alliance of (perhaps forcibly) like-minded civilizations, prospering as client states of a powerful hegemonizing sponsor civilization?

Sounds like the pilot of Star Trek: Enterprise.

Dave

 

[The Don]

I... might go for that, if our new alien overlords managed it about as well as the British managed India.

But presumably without the wars and famines that occurred in British India and without our alien overlords allowing local rulers freedom to oppress their own people and we wouldn't expect to have our people shipped across the alien empire to work on dangerous building projects or to take part in wars on other planets.

 

[Nessie]

The only people who are pro-colonialists are those who will be in power, wealthy or able to push their agenda (such as converting others to their chosen religion). No pro-colonialist will be happy being the one ruled over.

If those who desire the power that comes with colonialism, find a place being the alien overlord's local rulers, or the wealthy gets to keep their wealth and the religious their religion, they may tolerate and cooperate with the alien rule. That is what happened in places such as India, where the local rulers were kept on board with a share of the power etc.

 

[MikeG]

I remember reading a very old book once

Author? Title?

which said that if Ireland became independent then Britain would become a third rate country. I think that has turned out to be true.

No, it hasn't.

I met a descendant of Clive of India once, with others, who is now probably dead. I was expecting him to be a Colonel Blimp type, but he seemed to be a nice chap and very on the ball.

Wow, how enlightening.