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Would non-theistic “woo” lie outside the purview of “atheism”?

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Yes, I believe some people have quite complex and unusual ones. This is where you can get them, if you ask nicely and make the appropriate offerings to the title fairies.

Dave


Thanks Dave!

I was just saying to adaddon, just now, that I was kidding about wanting a snazzier title, but when you pointed me to that thread, and I found I wouldn't be the only member looking silly wanting to dress up in fancy togs (there are 50+ pages to that thread, so I have lots of company!), off I went and asked them to designate me "White Wizard".

Yours, incidentally, looks curious. I'm not sure I could even decipher it! What, if anything, does it mean?

Anyway, thanks!
 
As I readied to post to this thread, I realized it was actually an older thread but I'll post anyway

(. . .)

But an atheist can certainly harbor beliefs in other woo that doesn't require a god. A belief in ghosts, even, doesn't necessarily depend on a belief in a theistically dominated afterlife.


Yes well, that ‘issue’ (non-issue?) I’ve figured out to my satisfaction. I'd been wondering, back then, if religious ideas that aren’t necessarily deistic would apply to atheism, and I’d started this thread to basically work out that answer. And the answer’s entirely obvious (now that I *have* worked it out) : as you say, only literally theistic beliefs count when deciding if one’s an atheist. Sounds obvious enough, now, but it also means that you can have atheists who are literally religious.


(...) How are those two different definitions? An atheist has always meant "not a theist;" it's right there in the word itself. I'm not sure how the idea that there is a broader "modern definition" is a helpful concept. (...)


Hard atheism and soft atheism. And the latter is much more reasonable (and defensible) than the former.


(...) Same for agnostic -it's just someone who considers the truth about god "unknowable" for whatever reason. (...)


Not necessarily. Although the word started out with the meaning you attribute it, today it also covers the far more reasonable sense of simply “not known’ (as opposed to “unknowable”). Dawkins has a pretty detailed discussion about this in his God Delusion, and I agree with what he says, that claiming that God is “unknowable” (and always will be “unknowable”) is almost as weird as claiming he exists.
 
I don't understand the question. Atheism is a position on the existence of gods. Anything else is not atheism, by definition, even if it shares some attributes.

That's like asking if nut allergies are outside the purview of lactose intolerance.
 
Answering the question "What is the case?" is the skeptic's approach and lifelong endeavor, and if reliable knowledge is sought, the quest inevitably leads to science as method and the natural world as object, which simply means theism never arises as a hypothesis. Woo gets slaughtered, basically, all along the way.
 
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Hey, Pup.

"the existence of gods can never ... be known" doesn't sound like a statement that might stand up to proper skeptical examination. I mean, one would need to back that up, isn't it?


...snip...

Provide a definition of "god" that is used by any actual religion and I bet you can say 100% no such god exists or that there is zero evidence for such a god existence.
 
I don't understand the question. Atheism is a position on the existence of gods. Anything else is not atheism, by definition, even if it shares some attributes.

That's like asking if nut allergies are outside the purview of lactose intolerance.


It is, actually. The comparison you make isn't inapt. Think of it as someone new to medical terminology trying out different medical terms, and ending up with somewhat silly questions about such terms, to begin with.

Incidentally, back then, the context had been this : a friend of mine is very religious and traditional, only that tradition happens not to posit gods. Would she, too, then be an atheist, is what I'd been wondering. (She herself was repelled by the term 'atheist', incidentally.)

And the answer to the question is a resounding Yes, that's obvious to me now. Irrespective of her dislike for the term, an atheist is exactly what she is (albeit a religious one).
 
Provide a definition of "god" that is used by any actual religion and I bet you can say 100% no such god exists or that there is zero evidence for such a god existence.


Probably true (the latter at least, the soft atheism routine, although probably not necessarily the former, the hard atheism position), but how does that bear on Pup's statement (which was just one of his definitions of agnosticism, and not his actual worldview) that "the existence of gods can never, by definition, be known" ? That statement, to me, sounds as weird (a positive claim that you'd need to back up, but can't) as outright acceptance of some God-position. (Unless you specifically define God in such terms, in Advaitic terms for instance, but that would be a special case.)
 
woo inside wouldn't fall into the purview either because and I say this knowing you full well know it already.
Atheism only deals with one specific thing, The rejection of the claim a god or gods exist.

Anything after that is whatever falls into your skeptical net.
 
woo inside wouldn't fall into the purview either because and I say this knowing you full well know it already.
Atheism only deals with one specific thing, The rejection of the claim a god or gods exist.

Anything after that is whatever falls into your skeptical net.


I’m not sure I got that highlighted part. Could you clarify?




Incidentally (and this is a bit of derail, but this thread’s done anyway, more or less, so perhaps that won’t matter much), I’m wondering if there are any actual skeptics who are also theists, and if there are, how they pull it off.

No derision implied for the religious, just curiosity : If any theist on this forum happens to read this, could you tell me how you reconcile your theism with your skepticism? Do you consciously turn it off, the skepticism, when it comes to that one question?
 
No derision implied for the religious, just curiosity : If any theist on this forum happens to read this, could you tell me how you reconcile your theism with your skepticism? Do you consciously turn it off, the skepticism, when it comes to that one question?
I used to be a theist in my youth half a century ago, but my god did not interfere in anything, so there was no conflict with science. Supported by my Catholic teachers, I did not think that the Bible needed to be taken literally, and I thought that God, being omniscient, had created the world just so that the Big Bang would eventually form the Earth, and eventually form humans through evolution. God did not need to govern evolution, because he had known all the time that if he started the Big Bang in exactly this way, then humans would appear eventually.

Adam and Eve were just stories. At the time I thought they were nice stories, but later I found that God's behaviour in them were horrible examples of how an omniscient Father can treat his children, and this was one of many reasons why my faith gradually died.

Literalists have a lot more problems with science, and I have no idea how they handle the cognitive dissonance.
 
I used to be a theist in my youth half a century ago, but my god did not interfere in anything, so there was no conflict with science. Supported by my Catholic teachers, I did not think that the Bible needed to be taken literally, and I thought that God, being omniscient, had created the world just so that the Big Bang would eventually form the Earth, and eventually form humans through evolution. God did not need to govern evolution, because he had known all the time that if he started the Big Bang in exactly this way, then humans would appear eventually.

Adam and Eve were just stories. At the time I thought they were nice stories, but later I found that God's behaviour in them were horrible examples of how an omniscient Father can treat his children, and this was one of many reasons why my faith gradually died.

Literalists have a lot more problems with science, and I have no idea how they handle the cognitive dissonance.


Thanks for sharing, steenkh. So basically you'd not really looked at religion itself, the God question, with skepticism, is that right? Not overly criticially, that is. You know, the whole where's-the-evidence routine?

You speak in the past tense. Had you been generally skeptical back in those days? Did you consciously make an exception when it came to God's existence, you know, about God's omniscience, and even about his existence? And how'd you grow out of your faith?

Incidentally, science itself need not, neither that formalized structure nor its actual results, necessarily come into play every time, isn't it? And the less-than-nice biblical God is also probably not central to being rejected from a skeptical perspective, right?
 
Andrea Dworkin. Valarie Solanas. Maybe I misunderstood the question.

Just half-kidding. Taking somewhat different-from-the-mainstream positions, even as a pose, can sometimes help you score, right? Make you stand out from the herd? (Unfortunately I myself came to my non-belief only after I'd outgrown the necessity/desire to go out and "score" all over again. And back when scoring was one of the Very Important Things in life, I hadn't even thought about all this, nor had the wits to strike this particular pose.)
 
Thanks for sharing, steenkh. So basically you'd not really looked at religion itself, the God question, with skepticism, is that right? Not overly criticially, that is. You know, the whole where's-the-evidence routine?

You speak in the past tense. Had you been generally skeptical back in those days? Did you consciously make an exception when it came to God's existence, you know, about God's omniscience, and even about his existence? And how'd you grow out of your faith?
I was a child, and children generally accept what they are told. Criticism came with age and knowledge. Like a true god-of-the-gaps, God gradually retreated from every position that he used to hold, and I did not even notice when it happened. I came regularly in church (the only one in my family to do so), even though my faith in the official dogma were the first to go: I had no enmity, and I saw a lot of good people wanting to do good, and my teachers definitely were not Roman Catholic fundamentalists (being rather young, I never discussed stuff like contraception or homosexuality with them).

I never had a crisis of faith because my faith just evaporated, and I did not notice it. When I graduated, I moved from my home, I gave up my volunteer job at the church, realised that I had not believed for a long time, and started thinking critically about it all for the first time.

Incidentally, science itself need not, neither that formalized structure nor its actual results, necessarily come into play every time, isn't it?
No, lots can be achieved by logic and common sense. You just need to look at faith in an unbiased way.

And the less-than-nice biblical God is also probably not central to being rejected from a skeptical perspective, right?
I disagree, and that was why I wrote the original post against the OP: Any specific religion can be dismissed when you look at its central claims, but religion in general, as long as it does not conflict with what can be observed.

It is possible to believe in Last-Thursdayism (the belief that the world was created last Thursday complete with humans and memories) or that the world really was created a few thousand years ago, as described in the Bible, God just fooled us by placing all that evidence that the world is older. Science cannot disprove such silliness, but fortunately, even the believers find it silly, and they cannot believe that their gods would lie to them in that fashion.

As I said, science relies on unchangeable laws of nature, and there is no way scientifically to counter the belief that millions of elfs, or an omnipotent God are enforcing these laws, and can choose not to do so at any moment. Science can only point out that never in history has any of the fundamental laws been changed, and that the probability for the existence of gods and elfs must be ridiculously low.
 
I’m not sure I got that highlighted part. Could you clarify?




Incidentally (and this is a bit of derail, but this thread’s done anyway, more or less, so perhaps that won’t matter much), I’m wondering if there are any actual skeptics who are also theists, and if there are, how they pull it off.

No derision implied for the religious, just curiosity : If any theist on this forum happens to read this, could you tell me how you reconcile your theism with your skepticism? Do you consciously turn it off, the skepticism, when it comes to that one question?


If a theist presents woo, It does not fall under the atheist umbrella because Atheism only deals with one specific claim.

For example, a pastor might say he was abducted by aliens and you may find an Atheist who agrees aliens abduct people and believes the guy.

As for your second question, it's a really good one. I have heard it explained to me that theists may create a special blind spot in their minds for religion in which skeptical inquiry is never allowed to permeate.
 
I was a child, and children generally accept what they are told. Criticism came with age and knowledge. Like a true god-of-the-gaps, God gradually retreated from every position that he used to hold, and I did not even notice when it happened. I came regularly in church (the only one in my family to do so), even though my faith in the official dogma were the first to go: I had no enmity, and I saw a lot of good people wanting to do good, and my teachers definitely were not Roman Catholic fundamentalists (being rather young, I never discussed stuff like contraception or homosexuality with them).

I never had a crisis of faith because my faith just evaporated, and I did not notice it. When I graduated, I moved from my home, I gave up my volunteer job at the church, realised that I had not believed for a long time, and started thinking critically about it all for the first time.

(...)

Right. So there never was a time when you were generally skeptical, yet religious.

That's the reasonable position, I'd say. Either this or that. Yet there are those who claim to be skeptical, and nevertheless remain theistic. I was wondering how exactly they pull it off.
 

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