Would Democracy Exist if the Persians had Won?

[LorenzoValla]

And no successes or achievements?

I thought I made that clear, but perhaps not. Yes, the successes in England throughout history along with the problems they had informed the contemporary thinking about democracy and political institutions.

I'm not sure I agree. Read

That's an economic history and not a political history about how the Dutch advanced the notions of freedom and democracy. Maybe they did, but that's not my understanding.

this And that was that. Nothing more happened?

I think it took about 4 more tries to find a good democratic model of governing, so thanks for making that clear.

As to the Dutch Act of Abjuration; this may be of interest.

Declaring independence from a nation does not mean the new nation is intent upon creating a democratic nation.

James Madison was less than impressed with the political model of the Dutch Republic, as he describes it here in Federalist 20: http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa20.htm

 

[Craig B]

That's an economic history and not a political history about how the Dutch advanced the notions of freedom and democracy.

Yes. And what is this?

I don't see, however, what the Dutch Revolution really has to do with that. That was a declaration of independence that basically created the usual type feudal relationships among the new entities.

The Dutch revolution created a state that advanced beyond the economic category of "usual type feudal relationships". It even experienced the first capitalist speculative bubble. Have you not heard of the Tulip Mania?

 

[Craig B]

Yes. And what is this?

Your own words.

... our social and civil freedoms seem, to me at least, to be the product of what truly as American exceptionalism in the post American Revolution period - the conflation between nascent civil freedoms and unprecedented economic opportunity.

I state that similar opportunity characterised the Dutch Republic, and you dismiss it as irrelevant.

 

[LorenzoValla]

Yes. And what is this? The Dutch revolution created a state that advanced beyond the economic category of "usual type feudal relationships". It even experienced the first capitalist speculative bubble. Have you not heard of the Tulip Mania?

Yes, of course I have heard of it, but my point is that economic success isn't an indication of democratic insight or application. Many people throughout Europe had lots of economic success for centuries without any increase in democratic reforms or insight. For example, one could be a successful craftsman or merchant and not have any say in government policies or even who their ruler was. Far from it...

 

[LorenzoValla]

Your own words.

I state that similar opportunity characterised the Dutch Republic, and you dismiss it as irrelevant.

No, I'm saying that economic opportunity alone isn't an indicator of democratic principles. The point I'm making about America is that it instituted democratic reforms and then because of it's unprecedented economic opportunities, those reforms were provided breathing room to succeed, and that those reforms also helped the economy.

 

[Craig B]

No, I'm saying that economic opportunity alone isn't an indicator of democratic principles. The point I'm making about America is that it instituted democratic reforms and then because of it's unprecedented economic opportunities, those reforms were provided breathing room to succeed, and that those reforms also helped the economy.

Yes you are rightly saying that. But you also appear to be saying that this is an American peculiarity, as if nothing comparable was happening at that time in other countries.