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Worst Rape Apologist Editorial Ever

I agree with others here in that I find this article far more offensive to men than to women.

The idea that when one of my best buddies, a man I've known for 15 years, invites me over to his place to watch the baseball game at night, it would be irresponsible for me to trust him and go over because I should expect him to rape me is absolutly repugnant.


I mean geeze, being a city girl, coed living arrangements are the norm. Many women I've known have had male room mates. I've had two. The idea that I should automatically not trust any man, even a close friend, and should assume them all to be rapists says a lot more about the author's mind set (and a few posters on this page) than it does about society.
 
I don't really need a formal study to tell me that
Yes, you do. "It's obvious!" is a very poor basis for stating anything.
Actually, I think you do. Otherwise you're just guessing. It may seem obvious, but without some sort of verification 'it's obvious' doesn't hold much weight at all.
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/776945.html

Has anyone done ony studies on the proportion of things that seem obvious but are in fact dead wrong?

That was a really interesting exchange.
 
Additionally, it occurs to me that even the most superficial knowledge of history will show his kind of thinking to be wrong.

Dressing more conservatively hasn't reduced rape, if one looks at historical figures, nor caused people to stop assuming that someone is looking to get laid. Where for him apparently a dress like that is an invitation to think she wants to get laid, if you look at more Victorian times, seeing someone's ankles or wrists was taken for some kind of sexually provocative attire that totally indicates that she's looking to get laid. If for him a woman taking a job as a masseuse is an invitation to mistake her for some prostitute, roll back the clock a century or so and you end up with "symptoms" like smoking, eating chocolate, reading novels that were "signs" of low morals in women. Or, depending on time, place, and class, even getting a job at all.

In effect, the problem is that even believing that dressing or acting has anything to do with it (and it ain't), the problem is that it's all relative. It's something where everyone can't win. If every woman started wearing 14'th century dresses, then the criterion for which of them are sluts, in the mind of someone deranged enough, will just shift from "low cleavage" to "you can see her ankles." If every woman started wearing a burqa, then it would be those who have too big a window or too thin a mesh in front of her eyes that are somehow just asking for sex. As soon as there is any variance at all in appearance, speech or anything, one can draw a line in the middle of the interval and proclaim that the ones below that median are just asking for sex.

If you had, say, a small town with 10,000 women, one can look at basically the top 5000 and bottom 5000 in any aspect, and proclaim the bottom 5000 to be deserving it. E.g., because they wore a short dress. But ok, let's say they take the advice and those 5000 start wearing crinolins. Now it's the other 5000 that are less conservatively dressed. Someone doing that mental sorting from serious gal to slut, now has a different set that looks sluttier than the average. In effect, it's not even protection as such, it's just passing the acceptable victim role to someone else.

In other word, it strikes me as one of those "I don't have to outrun the tiger, I have to outrun YOU" kind of solutions that are so dear to some. Sure, but at the end of the day someone still is eaten by a tiger. Whereas if everyone got together and killed the tiger -- the "political solution" that is such anathema to a certain kind of idiot -- then everyone would objectively be safer than everyone trying to just pass the victim role to someone else.

Even in his Ann vs Sarah final anecdote things don't work that way. Sure, a burglar will prefer the easier target that is Sarah. But if Sarah too got a big metal door and state of the art alarm system, then now some other person on the block will get to be the easier target. Let's call her Diana. There is no indication that it would result in a decrease in criminality -- and indeed the factors that crime rate correlates with are entirely different. Sarah didn't actually solve the crime problem, she just passed the burglar to someone else. Now Diana too gets the biggest, meanest door in town, and someone else gets to be the easier target. And so on. And if everyone got bunker doors, then it still won't stop burglaries, it will now just move the easiest target to whoever has the most accessible window, or whose car model is easiest to jack, and so on.

The kind of personal ingenuity that he sees as the short term solution, isn't a solution at all. It's just passing the problem to someone else. Sometimes you have to change the world, because that's the only thing that works.
 
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Additionally, it occurs to me that even the most superficial knowledge of history will show his kind of thinking to be wrong.

....

On the contrary, my knowledge of history is sufficiently superficial that it fails to show him wrong. Perhaps you could provide some evidence?

Dressing more conservatively hasn't reduced rape...

What evidence is there that people are dressing more conservatively and that rape hasn't reduced?
 
Additionally, it occurs to me that even the most superficial knowledge of history will show his kind of thinking to be wrong.

Dressing more conservatively hasn't reduced rape, if one looks at historical figures, nor caused people to stop assuming that someone is looking to get laid. Where for him apparently a dress like that is an invitation to think she wants to get laid, if you look at more Victorian times, seeing someone's ankles or wrists was taken for some kind of sexually provocative attire that totally indicates that she's looking to get laid. If for him a woman taking a job as a masseuse is an invitation to mistake her for some prostitute, roll back the clock a century or so and you end up with "symptoms" like smoking, eating chocolate, reading novels that were "signs" of low morals in women. Or, depending on time, place, and class, even getting a job at all.

In effect, the problem is that even believing that dressing or acting has anything to do with it (and it ain't), the problem is that it's all relative. It's something where everyone can't win. If every woman started wearing 14'th century dresses, then the criterion for which of them are sluts, in the mind of someone deranged enough, will just shift from "low cleavage" to "you can see her ankles." If every woman started wearing a burqa, then it would be those who have too big a window or too thin a mesh in front of her eyes that are somehow just asking for sex. As soon as there is any variance at all in appearance, speech or anything, one can draw a line in the middle of the interval and proclaim that the ones below that median are just asking for sex.

If you had, say, a small town with 10,000 women, one can look at basically the top 5000 and bottom 5000 in any aspect, and proclaim the bottom 5000 to be deserving it. E.g., because they wore a short dress. But ok, let's say they take the advice and those 5000 start wearing crinolins. Now it's the other 5000 that are less conservatively dressed. Someone doing that mental sorting from serious gal to slut, now has a different set that looks sluttier than the average. In effect, it's not even protection as such, it's just passing the acceptable victim role to someone else.

In other word, it strikes me as one of those "I don't have to outrun the tiger, I have to outrun YOU" kind of solutions that are so dear to some. Sure, but at the end of the day someone still is eaten by a tiger. Whereas if everyone got together and killed the tiger -- the "political solution" that is such anathema to a certain kind of idiot -- then everyone would objectively be safer than everyone trying to just pass the victim role to someone else.

Even in his Ann vs Sarah final anecdote things don't work that way. Sure, a burglar will prefer the easier target that is Sarah. But if Sarah too got a big metal door and state of the art alarm system, then now some other person on the block will get to be the easier target. Let's call her Diana. There is no indication that it would result in a decrease in criminality -- and indeed the factors that crime rate correlates with are entirely different. Sarah didn't actually solve the crime problem, she just passed the burglar to someone else. Now Diana too gets the biggest, meanest door in town, and someone else gets to be the easier target. And so on. And if everyone got bunker doors, then it still won't stop burglaries, it will now just move the easiest target to whoever has the most accessible window, or whose car model is easiest to jack, and so on.

The kind of personal ingenuity that he sees as the short term solution, isn't a solution at all. It's just passing the problem to someone else. Sometimes you have to change the world, because that's the only thing that works.

This really is the most important point. If women did dress more conservatively, then there would simply be a shift in what was considered slutty.


I'm reminded of an article I read recently about a woman in some middle eastern country where dress code was not enforced legally, but there were certain societal expectations. They followed this woman around her city for the day. She was a "liberal" woman by their standards, which meant that while she wore a long sleeve shirt that reached up to her neck and full length pants and skirts, she did not cover her head or her hands or feet, and she wore lipstick. Throughout the day, she was continuously castigated by people telling her she was a whore.
 
Or even just take a quick snapshot comparison of the world today: there are countries where women dress more conservatively, and countries where they don't. Are there differences between the rates of sexual assaults in those countries? Do those differences come out in favor of conservative clothes for women?
 
Or even just take a quick snapshot comparison of the world today: there are countries where women dress more conservatively, and countries where they don't. Are there differences between the rates of sexual assaults in those countries? Do those differences come out in favor of conservative clothes for women?

You would have to know the reporting rates too. I imagine where strict dress codes are enforced, women are also treated more badly and less likely to come forward.
 
What evidence is there that people are dressing more conservatively and that rape hasn't reduced?

Well, the Taliban enforced conservative dress for women, and partly claimed it was for their own protection. Which led to an era of unprecedented safety and security for Afghan women didn't work out so well.

Of course, there's always more than just one factor involved. But that's the point -- the belief that women can prevent rape by dressing more cautiously is part & parcel of a societal attitude that is dangerous to women.
 
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It was strange. I initially thought this was just some fringe idiot. But he's been a respected journalist/essayist/editor for forty years. This is a serious blunder. I hope they rip him to shreds.
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The problem is highlighted.
He's typical of the nasty old man, many of whom write long book on how to mistreat the world. And especially them damn women, who ignore him and look good and have fun and ignore him ....
 
the best is getting all excited by something that has absolutely nothing to do with you domain.

light up the torches and get the lynch mob going

(The American Way, how did it start...)
 
the best is getting all excited by something that has absolutely nothing to do with you domain.

light up the torches and get the lynch mob going

(The American Way, how did it start...)

You are in favor of ignoring injustice unless it affects one directly?
 
What evidence is there that people are dressing more conservatively and that rape hasn't reduced?

I would submit the less than stellar quality of life led by women in countries with strict dress codes. I believe we can all guess the rough geographic location of said nations.

The statistics won't be particularly revealing on that score. It would be like determining the quality of life led by slaves in the Antebellum South based on police reports of slave beatings: when a population is sufficiently repressed and that repression is enforced by the authorities, the crimes are not going to be revealed. Stalin didn't consider the 50,000,000 some odd people he killed murder victims.

Likewise, a young girl forced into a marriage who must then submit to her husband sexually or receive beatings, have acid thrown in her face, or worse, will probably be raped a thousand times in her life. Not a single one of those incidents will find it's way into that nation's crime statistics. Hell, the social domination is so complete that a sizeable percentage of women in such situations don't even consider that abuse. It's just "the way things are."

The Utah study in one of the provided links should put an end to any debate on this topic: 4.4% of rapes involved some provocative action on the part of the victim (not all of that was dress). It was over 20% for murder victims. Most rapists don't remember what their victim was wearing.

On every level: conceptually, common sense, scientific study, basic observation, basic logic, the notion that victim behavior is a controlling factor in rape is just completely false.
 
the best is getting all excited by something that has absolutely nothing to do with you domain.

What about this article is not our domain?

He insults men as unable to act civilized and blames women for whatever men do to them. So far as I'm aware, most of us are in one of those two offended domains.
 
On the contrary, my knowledge of history is sufficiently superficial that it fails to show him wrong. Perhaps you could provide some evidence?

What evidence is there that people are dressing more conservatively and that rape hasn't reduced?

The point wasn't that people are dressing more conservatively over time, but that if you go through time backwards, from the present towards the 1800's, holy crap, you start seeing more and more clothes on women the farther back in time you go. But you don't see rape disappearing or anything.

In fact, pretty much the only going down effect you see as you go back in time or across geography to some of the more benighted places, has to do more with stuff like

- whether certain kinds of assaults were even recognized as rape at all (e.g., yeah, before marital rape was even recognized as rape, the rape numbers were a lot lower)

- how easy it was to get out of a rape accusation (at least as late as 1966 when a study on the topic was written, even having a drink with the accused could be considered pretty much consent or having a bad enough character to not warrant convicting the rapist; and sadly we're still not completely in the clear for that kind of thinking)

- how much of a stigma it means for the victim to report it (which is why the reported rape incidence in Saudi Arabia for example is virtually nonexistent; but even in the west it's the most under-reported crime.)

In effect, most of the blaming the victim mentality seems to me to not actually do much to prevent anything. People were raped even when they were wearing victorian era dresses, and people are raped even when they wear burqas. What it actually does is just keep them from reporting it, and/or allow more rapists to go free.

The more we go back in time, the more we find juries deciding that although the victim did get screwed without consent, it's her own damned fault for whatever passed at the time as a sign of having low morals. You don't see what you'd expect, namely people going, "hey, she was covered from neck to ankles, so for Christ's sake, there's no way to pin that on her", but it just proportionally lowers the bar for what qualifies as being practically begging for it. You see more and more cases where the victim was ruled to be practically begging for it because she had a drink at a bar, or was smoking (until a tobacco industry campaign changed that, yes, a woman smoking was a sign of being some kind of slut), or had a reputation of having had extramarital sex (so then I guess then rape was free game too), or whatever.

In effect, that kind of placing expectations on the victim is counter-productive. Historically, the higher such expectations to avoid rape by not giving all the slutty signs were, the higher the expectation also was that if you got raped you must have given some signs that you're available. It even follows logically. If X=>Y then !Y=>!X. If one actually expects that there is some kind of dressing or behaviour that prevents rape, then if it didn't prevent rape, well, obviously she wasn't doing the right thing. Even if one has to promote seeing her ankles to a sign of her being available.

And it's not just for rape. The higher the expectations of a woman's "proper" behaviour were, just the more mundane were the things that were supposed to signal she's a nymphomaniac looking to get laid. I mean, when I mentioned eating chocolate or reading novels as being considered symptoms of it, I mean literally clinically, those were once considered symptoms of nymphomania. See, for example, Bienville in his 1771 treatise that coined the name of the "disease."

Which ties again to rape and rape reporting: throughout the 1800's you could actually be commited to a mental institution for being suspected of nymphomania, and one of the things that could get one committed was... reporting a rape. That's what one gets when people expect that whoever got raped must have somehow invited it. (Treatments included cold baths, enemas, induced vomiting, leeches applied... err... you know... down there, and could go all the way to genital mutilation.) Not that it stopped there, as the accusation of nymphomania was trotted out extensively in rape trials throughout the 60's and 70's.

What I'm saying is that really, looking back at it, I don't see provocative attires or showing breasts and legs as making much of a difference. You don't see rape taking a drop in the mid-70's when miniskirts went out of fashion, for example. The difference in rape incidents per capita has more to do with the relaxation of that kind of kicking the victim while she's down, than with anything fashion-related. Dress coverage going up and down just resulted in a proportional shift in what counts as inviting sex anyway.
 
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Nat Geo did a study on women's rights in the Stone Age lands of today.
They had a photo of an Afghani police woman arresting a husband (with blood on his clothes) for stabbing his wife who dissed him.. She's in a burqa, with blood all over it.
The Taliban murdered the police woman!
 

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