World hunger

Re: Re: Huh?

Ziggurat said:
How stupid are you? Genocide is the pinnacle of barbarity.

How stupid are YOU? If genocide is the PINNACLE of barbarity, why are we chasing a wild goose in Iraq instead of helping out in Sudan? Where were we when Rwanda was in the middle of their genocide?

Funny, how liberating people is only important when we have something to gain. If the Sudanese had been sitting atop the largest oil reserve in their area, and the Iraqis had only sand, who would we be "helping" then?
 
Matteo Martini said:
...snip...
Erixon explained the flawed assumptions that underlie the theory of aid:
Countries are not poor because they lack roads, schools or health clinics. They lack these things because they are poor – and they are poor because they lack the institutions of the free society, which create the underlying conditions for economic development. Aid has it upside down.
He continued by contrasting the plight of most African countries with that of Botswana:

Botswana chose to empower its people with inclusive economic institutions instead of pursuing socialism like many of its African counterparts. As a result, it has experienced the world's highest rates of economic growth in the past 30 years, and its people are far better off – with per capita incomes of around $8,000 per year, compared with less than $1,000 in many African countries.

Africa received over $400 billion in aid between 1970 and 2000. Yet, the evidence presented in the study shows an inverse relationship between aid and economic growth – when aid rises, growth falls. In part, this is because aid supplants private-sector investment and undermines savings: there is also an inverse relationship between savings and aid – when aid increases, saving decreases. "


First of all, I'm very skeptical of anyone who claims that financial help to Africa is worthless - are they worried about having to pay the bill? I say that only to put his argument in perspective. Then he uses Botswana as an example, and it's difficult to counter that, because who really knows what happened in Botswana?? Whatever small piece of news that arrives to us might be biased. I don't know enough about Botswana, and I'm not sure what "inclusive economic institutions" mean.

$400 billion isn't that much over a 30 year span and millions of people. Compare that to the 300 billion that the EU spends with agricultural subsidies and the... what, 150 billion the US has spent so far in Iraq?

But it's still a vast amount of money. I do concede that money can be invested unwisely at any scale - people who earn the lottery may end up in poverty later on. What that means is that giving aid is not enough, and in some cases, not appropriate. I don't see how money can be detrimental per se. After all, underdevelopment, in its most basic definition, is lack of capital. So you can't really convince me that capital is bad for an underdeveloped country.

Brazil has experienced its economic miracle in the 1970s - GDP growth of 10%, 12%, 15%, during its military authoritarian regime. It was also a time when the country received vast amounts of loans, which were duly invested in infrastructure and industrialization. I could write 2 billion words on this, but, for short, let's just say that I don't believe that, necessarily, authoritarian regimes are the roots of backwardness.

I believe that democracy tends to foster progress, but then it can very well be a consequence of economic development rather than its cause. When you have a high rate of illiteracy, democracy is a piece of fiction. As poor education is linked to poverty, then you see the conundrum.

What is the economic relevance of Africa right now? How much it answers for the global world trade? What's its strategic importance? The problem is that Africa, in general, is largely irrelevant. An investor has plenty of other countries to choose from, with better competitive edge (in general terms, with little exceptions, maybe what, Nigeria's oil?) and would rather invest in the Asian tigers, China, India, Brazil. Even agriculture needs big investments for efficiency.

If western countries directed money straight into schools and universities (of better, if African leaders did that), soon a middle-class would emerge and they themselves would be able to tackle with weak democratic institutions, corruption, bad governance, dictatorships. But for as long as large portions of the population can barely read or write, if at all, I can't see how governments will ever be held accountable for their deeds.
 
Matteo Martini said:
Ok

This is my opinion about why some countries develop and some do not.

Matteo, you might want to read a little about Max Weber. It's a good start to a debate, then google for some theories that refute his own.

I would say that religion has an impact on how a society leads to matters regarding ethics and long-term commitment to work, but I don't believe it's tantamount to defining its progress or lack of it.

The "African Debt Relief" thread is a great read, and I wish I could intervene, but those guys are too fast-paced for me, I really can't dedicate more than half an hour to this forum everyday.
 
Luciana Nery said:


$400 billion isn't that much over a 30 year span and millions of people. Compare that to the 300 billion that the EU spends with agricultural subsidies and the... what, 150 billion the US has spent so far in Iraq?


Hi Luciana, nice hearing from you again.

I would say that 400 billions is a lot of money for countries which have maybe 40 million as yearly GDP.
After all, the " Marshall plan " which successfully helped European economy after WWII was not THAT big ( I do not have real numbers though ).
Maybe Africa should not have become as developed as Western countries with that money but maybe, we should not see children dying of hunger..
But the big question remains why Africa does not get developed somehow after 50 or more years of independence.
I so do not think the problem is all in the " lack of free trade with Western countries " as you suggested

Luciana Nery said:


But it's still a vast amount of money. I do concede that money can be invested unwisely at any scale - people who earn the lottery may end up in poverty later on. What that means is that giving aid is not enough, and in some cases, not appropriate. I don't see how money can be detrimental per se. After all, underdevelopment, in its most basic definition, is lack of capital. So you can't really convince me that capital is bad for an underdeveloped country.


Never said that but.. how then we can find a " good " way to spend money given for aid?
And why until now Western countries have given money for aid in an " unwise " manner?
Did not they care to spend their money to achieve a result ?

Luciana Nery said:


Brazil has experienced its economic miracle in the 1970s - GDP growth of 10%, 12%, 15%, during its military authoritarian regime. It was also a time when the country received vast amounts of loans, which were duly invested in infrastructure and industrialization. I could write 2 billion words on this, but, for short, let's just say that I don't believe that, necessarily, authoritarian regimes are the roots of backwardness.


That is extremely interesting.
I did not know that!!

Luciana Nery said:

I believe that democracy tends to foster progress, but then it can very well be a consequence of economic development rather than its cause. When you have a high rate of illiteracy, democracy is a piece of fiction. As poor education is linked to poverty, then you see the conundrum.


OK

Luciana Nery said:


What is the economic relevance of Africa right now? How much it answers for the global world trade? What's its strategic importance? The problem is that Africa, in general, is largely irrelevant. An investor has plenty of other countries to choose from, with better competitive edge (in general terms, with little exceptions, maybe what, Nigeria's oil?) and would rather invest in the Asian tigers, China, India, Brazil. Even agriculture needs big investments for efficiency.

If western countries directed money straight into schools and universities (of better, if African leaders did that), soon a middle-class would emerge and they themselves would be able to tackle with weak democratic institutions, corruption, bad governance, dictatorships. But for as long as large portions of the population can barely read or write, if at all, I can't see how governments will ever be held accountable for their deeds.

I do not think you need to go to school to understand that a bad dictator is a bad dictator.
I agree that Africa is not relevant to modern economy, but that could have been the fate of Japan ( which has no oil, no gas, etc. ).
Before 1868 there was a " feudal " society in Japan.
However, Japan became developed ( with no help from Western countries ), while Mali, with the help of Western countries and natural resources, did not.
 
Luciana Nery said:
Brazil has experienced its economic miracle in the 1970s - GDP growth of 10%, 12%, 15%, during its military authoritarian regime. It was also a time when the country received vast amounts of loans, which were duly invested in infrastructure and industrialization.

Thinking about it well, this is the same case of China ( just change " military authoritarian regime " into " communist authoritarian regime " )
China AFAIK, has not received any loan, however.
It is the U.S. who is receiving loans from China as treasury bonds
 
Re: Re: Re: Huh?

Mephisto said:
How stupid are YOU? If genocide is the PINNACLE of barbarity, why are we chasing a wild goose in Iraq instead of helping out in Sudan? Where were we when Rwanda was in the middle of their genocide?

This argument is really coming out of nowhere. Where is it written that because I support the administration's policy on Iraq that I somehow must agree with their Sudan policy completely either? It is not in my power to set Sudan policy, but even if it were, do you even know what my prefered course of action would be? No, you do not. And what I'm about to say isn't an outline of what I would choose either, it is merely an evaluation of the reality we face..

To get more into the specifics, you're REALLY not going to like my answer to this one, because it requires even more brutal honesty and uncomfortable truth than the fact that genocide can only be stopped with violence (a point which I notice you aren't still foolishly trying to argue against). The answer is that we have never been willing to pile up bodies simply to stop the killing of people who have no strategic importance or significant connection to America. Because that is what it would take: the will to kill hundreds, or even tens of thousands, of the people committing the genocide. We do not have the stomach for that. Unfortunately, nobody does. But without that willpower, it simply won't happen.

You seem to want to blame me for that reality. But I did not create it, and I cannot change it. And the howling of the left about the supposed hypocracy of intervening in Iraq but not Sudan doesn't actually help, either: it is a hollow gesture, from people who, for the most part, would never support the bloody, dirty work that would need to be done to actually intervene. Just like the "Free Tibet" bumper stickers from people who would never support all-out war with China (the only possible means to free Tibet), it may make you feel morally superior, but it accomplishes nothing. So while you prattle away about what you think an ideal world should be like, I'm arguing for how we should act given the actual realities we live in. And the unfortunate and tragic reality is that no western government is going to be willing to step in to stop genocide in Sudan. Don't blame me for recognizing the truth just because it's uncomfortable.

Iraq is different, because we have strategic interests. The American public knows that despotism and terrorism go hand in hand in the middle east, and that middle east terrorism poses a risk to them. We do not feel that violence in Africa, however terrible it may be, has much direct impact on us. Is this how it should be? No, perhaps not. But that is the way it is. The American public was never going to support the kind of military operation it would take to end genocide in the Sudan. They might have been willing to in Rwanda, because that actually wouldn't have required as much of a presence as the Sudan would require. And yes, I DO blame Clinton for not stepping in.

So if you're ready to find out what I think should be done about Sudan, rather than just making assumptions based on your own fevered logic, then ask me. Until then, I'll let you keep guessing, but I doubt you'll stumble upon my real opinion.

Funny, how liberating people is only important when we have something to gain. If the Sudanese had been sitting atop the largest oil reserve in their area, and the Iraqis had only sand, who would we be "helping" then?

It's obvious you really haven't been paying attention to Sudan. Violence in Sudan was sparked precisely because oil WAS found in Sudan. That's what started the whole north-south civil war that served as the prelude to the current crisis in Darfur. And the reason the UN has been so hesitant to actually do anything, even if it's just empty gestures in the form of resolutions making demands that have no force, is because China has major interests in those oil fields. And one of the reasons China is so heavily invested in those oil fields is because western companies such as Talisman divested their interests under pressure from human rights organizations. Didn't work out quite as those human rights groups had hoped. I'm sure it seemed like a good idea at the time, but it seems to have only made things worse. Talisman tried to apply pressure to the Sudanese government over human rights, and as long as they were invested, they had at least some leverage. Now that leverage is gone, and there's not a chance in hell that China will ever exert any pressure on Sudan to clean up its human rights record. So next time you want to rant about how it's ALL ABOUT the OOOOIIIILLLL, MAN! it would help to actually know something about said oil.
 
Re: Re: I think YOU need to get a clue!

Ziggurat said:
Abstinance does work. And you have yet to provide any argument as to why people who don't follow the teachings of the church regarding who they should have sex with (church: only your spouse) will somehow start paying attention when it comes to what to put on their genitals during intercourse.

However, convincing a young male to put the condom on before intercourse is far more easy than to convince him not to have sex at all.
At lest this is MY case.
 
Re: Re: Re: I think YOU need to get a clue!

Matteo Martini said:
However, convincing a young male to put the condom on before intercourse is far more easy than to convince him not to have sex at all.
At lest this is MY case.

Sure. But it seems to me that once you decide you're going to have premarital or extramarital sex, sinfulness be damned, that you're not suddenly going to start caring about whether or not it's sinful to use a condom while committing this sinful act of sex with someone other than your spouse. So I'm having a hard time understanding why the Catholic Church's anti-condom stance is really as evil as it's being made out to be. And if it really is so evil, why aren't there studies to show how AIDS is spreading more rapidly through observant catholic populations in Africa? If such evidence exists, it would strongly suggest to me that there is a problem with the church's position. Absent that, I'm really not seeing what Mephisto is getting his panties in a twist about.
 
Most of the financial aid to africa is rigged. Like with conditions that they must buy certain things. And in the end this will create debt.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: I think YOU need to get a clue!

Ziggurat said:
Sure. But it seems to me that once you decide you're going to have premarital or extramarital sex, sinfulness be damned, that you're not suddenly going to start caring about whether or not it's sinful to use a condom while committing this sinful act of sex with someone other than your spouse. So I'm having a hard time understanding why the Catholic Church's anti-condom stance is really as evil as it's being made out to be.

Maybe because fear of AIDS could be more compelling than fear of committing a sin which can be " washed out " through proper confession?
Why do you think that 85% of Catholic families in Italy have 2 or less children?
Making love twice in your life?
Ogino-knaus?

Ziggurat said:

And if it really is so evil, why aren't there studies to show how AIDS is spreading more rapidly through observant catholic populations in Africa? If such evidence exists, it would strongly suggest to me that there is a problem with the church` s position

Mine are just unsupported assumptions.
However, maybe Africans are not keen to use condom either in Catholic and in non-Catholic nations
 

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