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Workplace Chaplains

ponderingturtle said:
So the goal is to have the least unqualified person there, and not a qualified person there?
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Shrug. Resources are always limited.

We could put an M.D. aboard every fire truck and police car in the city, to render medical aid at the scene of an accident.

We could put a Ph.D. into every elementary school classroom in the world.

We could put a Nobel laureate into every college physics classroom --- oh, wait. No, we couldn't. There aren't enough Nobel laureates out there to make that physically possible!

When someone is pulling your broken and bleeding body out of the wreckage of a car -- are you going to refuse the help of the EMT-trained fireman and insist on waiting several hours for the coroner -- who probably is an M.D. -- to get there?
 
ponderingturtle said:
Basicly why should we believe that they are getting training based on sound psychological principles in their religious instruction, and not training based on religious principles in their religious instruction?
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Because we did our homework and are familiar with seminary instruction?
 
Garrette said:
Three points:

1. Yes, they are more qualified. Perhaps not as qualified as a psychologist, but more qualified than the cook.

2. The function fits more neatly with the other roles of the chaplain than it does with the cook.

3. It generally works. I myself am atheist, and my unit is quite aware of it. I would consider using the chaplain if I needed confidential counseling. I wouldn't necessarily use the chaplain, but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. I would dismiss using the cook out of hand.
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And trusting unqualified counselors is a major problem in mental health. Because for example after 9/11 they where using models that helped cause PTSD in people because of their incompetence. So why should we assume that chaplains are better than the councilors who tried to help people after 9/11.

The specific thing that they did wrong was to have groups of people with dissimilar experiences and telling them what the symptoms of PTSD are and so letting them know to expect this. And surprise they got those symptoms.
 
ponderingturtle said:
As are the evils of homosexuality, but why should we concider one to be evidence based and having a positive effect and the other not evidence based?

Basicly why should we believe that they are getting training based on sound psychological principles in their religious instruction, and not training based on religious principles in their religious instruction?
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It is difficult for me to tell which of these two alternatives you are suggesting, PT, but it is clear that it can only be one of these two:

1. Assign a full-fledged, practicing psychologist to shadow every member of the service, ready and able to provide immediate professional counseling at a moment's notice.

2. Make it illegal for any service member to counsel any other service member to any degree because if counseling isn't from a full-fledged, practicing psychologist it must not be attempted.

The first is impractical.

The second is perhaps doable, but we'll need to have full-fledged, practicing psychologists provide training to all service members so that they know when they are crossing the line into inappropriate counseling.

I suggest we ban Private Smith from buying Private Jones a drink when Private Jones is depressed because his girl back home dumped him. That's too much like counseling, in my opinion.


ETA: drkitten beat me to it while I was composing this.
 
Garrette said:
There is no rational way in which you could have reached this conclusion from the posts made here.
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So, past life regression thearapy is strongly evidence based and helps people deal with real problems? It is done by many councelors after all, and they have qualifications, not so dissimilar to the ones under discussion here.
 
drkitten said:
Shrug. Resources are always limited.

We could put an M.D. aboard every fire truck and police car in the city, to render medical aid at the scene of an accident.

We could put a Ph.D. into every elementary school classroom in the world.

We could put a Nobel laureate into every college physics classroom --- oh, wait. No, we couldn't. There aren't enough Nobel laureates out there to make that physically possible!

When someone is pulling your broken and bleeding body out of the wreckage of a car -- are you going to refuse the help of the EMT-trained fireman and insist on waiting several hours for the coroner -- who probably is an M.D. -- to get there?
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The thing is that EMT's operate on very strict protocalls, and have very very little choice in how they respond to anything. Does the Chaplain work in a similar manor? Or are they like many councelors free to practice what ever woo they want?

Need to handle PTSD, well all you have to do is tap the right pressure points in the right order on a regular basis and you will be cured after all. That is real things councelors have done for people after katrina in new orleans.

So, for example if you are having back pain you could get an appointment to see a specialist doctor in a few weeks, or just go see the chiropracter now. They are specialists in such things after all, so clearly the chiro is better because you see them so much faster.
 
ponderingturtle said:
So, past life regression thearapy is strongly evidence based and helps people deal with real problems? It is done by many councelors after all, and they have qualifications, not so dissimilar to the ones under discussion here.
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Try staying on point. The post of yours to which I was replying is this:

ponderingturtle said:
So the goal is to have the least unqualified person there, and not a qualified person there?
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Tell me, PT: Who is the "they" who did those things wrong when treating PTSD? Was it military chaplains?
 
Now, if your whole point is simply that no counselor, whether psychologist, chaplain, or me, should practice woo, I have no issue with that. Do you have evidence it is occurring?
 
Garrette said:
It is difficult for me to tell which of these two alternatives you are suggesting, PT, but it is clear that it can only be one of these two:

1. Assign a full-fledged, practicing psychologist to shadow every member of the service, ready and able to provide immediate professional counseling at a moment's notice.

2. Make it illegal for any service member to counsel any other service member to any degree because if counseling isn't from a full-fledged, practicing psychologist it must not be attempted.

The first is impractical.

The second is perhaps doable, but we'll need to have full-fledged, practicing psychologists provide training to all service members so that they know when they are crossing the line into inappropriate counseling.

I suggest we ban Private Smith from buying Private Jones a drink when Private Jones is depressed because his girl back home dumped him. That's too much like counseling, in my opinion.


ETA: drkitten beat me to it while I was composing this.
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Cool, just go see the reflexologist about all your medical problems then. They can fix anything, just ask them.
 
Garrette said:
Now, if your whole point is simply that no counselor, whether psychologist, chaplain, or me, should practice woo, I have no issue with that. Do you have evidence it is occurring?
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That people who have the same ammount of training as the chaplians practiceing woo? Sure. That chaplains in particular practice woo, no.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Cool, just go see the reflexologist about all your medical problems then. They can fix anything, just ask them.
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If you truly think that is not a non sequitur I suggest you step away for a bit and come back when your emotions are not so much in the way.
 
ponderingturtle said:
That people who have the same ammount of training as the chaplians practiceing woo?
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You have verified their training with that of chaplains? You have examined the counseling "protocols" of chaplains?

ponderingturtle said:
Sure. That chaplains in particular practice woo, no.
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Thank you for admitting it.
 
Let me see if I can recap your argument, PT:

1. Some counselors with limited training have caused harm by practicing woo methods.

2. Chaplains have the same limited training.

3. Therefore chaplains should not be allowed to counsel.

Is that right?
 
Garrette said:
Let me see if I can recap your argument, PT:

1. Some counselors with limited training have caused harm by practicing woo methods.

2. Chaplains have the same limited training.

3. Therefore chaplains should not be allowed to counsel.

Is that right?
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I would change the some to many
 
Okay. Let's change the some to many.

Your argument is flawed.

Saying that many counselors have used woo and caused harm does not equate to saying that counseling is harmful. Nor does it equate to saying that most counselors have used woo and caused harm.

Most importantly, it does not equate to saying that chaplains use woo and cause harm. (I assume you will allow me to ignore that small percentage of any profession or practice who abuse their position).

---

I'd still like to know which of the two options I stated earlier is your position.
 
Garrette said:
Okay. Let's change the some to many.

Your argument is flawed.

Saying that many counselors have used woo and caused harm does not equate to saying that counseling is harmful. Nor does it equate to saying that most counselors have used woo and caused harm.

Most importantly, it does not equate to saying that chaplains use woo and cause harm. (I assume you will allow me to ignore that small percentage of any profession or practice who abuse their position).

---

I'd still like to know which of the two options I stated earlier is your position.
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So what is a small ignorable percentage? I am not at all convinced that the percentage of counselors who use woo actively and harm their patients because of that, is a small percentage.

Why do you not accept say the idea that it is just a few bad chiropractors ruining it for the rest? Well the answer is we have good evidence about the number of them who practice outside any effective area of their training or areas that they have any evidence for effectiveness in.

So what is the percentage of counselors who do such things? No one knows because they are even more poorly regulated than chiropractors, so it is impossible to tell who is practicing and if they are using sound methods.

As for the two positions you mentioned earlier, neither fits what I see and the optimal solution. I would prefer to see councilors with out all the religious baggage, with high quality psychiatric training.
 
Please tell me which of those two options I listed represents your proposed solution.
 
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