Workplace Chaplains

[ponderingturtle]

I'm not a lawyer, but I think you are mistaken on the bolded part (the bolding is mine, not yours).

Regarding sexual harassment, a hostile work environment need not entail direct harassment. If management simply allows employees to hang Sports Illustrated calendars where viewable by other employees, that might be enough to indicate a hostile environment.

Likewise, the presence of a chaplain might be enough for a hostile religious environment. Or maybe not. Just wondering.

As an aside, as drkitten has touched upon, military chaplains are generally the de facto counselors in the unit, separate from any religious practice or prosyletization.

It is all about if you can convince the jury, it does not matter how it makes any employee feel.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The training and certification requirements for counseling by chaplains in the military compare unfavorably to those in the civilian world.

http://www.usachcs.army.mil/TNGDIR/Enlist~1.htm

They do have other duties as well, including "combat lifesaving," so I don't mean to imply that they are inherently useless. I just don't think that the shamanic mouthpieces of imaginary creatures should do the work of trained counselors.

They have god on their side, why do they need evidence based procedures?

 

[Garrette]

But if you are not concerned with docterine, why not just get an MSW or something, why go with Woo based practices?

Either because it's the business owner's preference or because it's a business-based decision that the religious counselor will be more likely to please the workforce.

My guess, anyway.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Just because the Army doesn't train chaplains in counselling doesn't mean that they don't have that training. The Army doesn't train doctors, dentists or lawyers, either. In order to become a JAG, you already need to have a law degree. In order to become an Army dentist, you need to already be a dentist. Trapper John got his medical degree at Dartmouth before he ever became an army medic in Korea. (I don't remember where Hawkeye did his degree.)

A priest is a professional counsellor, although you may not like his style of counselling; that's what the courses on "counselling" and "pastoral care" at the seminary are about. A chaplain is a professional counsellor who is also a soldier; the three months of training is not to make a counsellor, but to teach the counsellor to be a soldier as well. (They teach pastoral care at the seminary, but not saluting....)

And who else are you going to get to exorcise the demon from the IED's you find?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Considering that no study shows clergy to be as effective at treating, to choose an condition that is relevant to the issue of counseling in the military, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder as a properly qualified counselor, how can you even say that they are, by definition counselors? At the most I might concede that they are amateur counselors who should be regarded with as much trepidation as amateur tax accountants and amateur dentists.

But PTSD is know to be caused by demons, drawn to regions of conflict possessing the person. And who is more qualified than a member of the clergy to exorcise demons?

 

[drkitten]

I'm using it in a looser form than I think you are, and I don't think any chaplain (none I have worked with anyway) would try to counsel soldiers with real psychological issues.

Possibly. I could also see a chaplain trying to counsel soldiers with real psychological issues if the real psychologists were rather seriously unavailable, in the same way that a dentist in the medical corps might be tempted to use some of his painkillers to ease the pain of a seriously wounded soldier if things have gone sufficiently wrong in the heat of combat, or that someone might comandeer a jeep to evacuate wounded if all the ambulances have broken down or been blown up. When PFC Lawrence is holding a pistol to his head screaming at people to make the voices stop, and the psychologists with the Thorazine and straightjackets are a four hour helicopter flight away, who is supposed to be talking to him?

 

[Garrette]

Possibly. I could also see a chaplain trying to counsel soldiers with real psychological issues if the real psychologists were rather seriously unavailable, in the same way that a dentist in the medical corps might be tempted to use some of his painkillers to ease the pain of a seriously wounded soldier if things have gone sufficiently wrong in the heat of combat, or that someone might comandeer a jeep to evacuate wounded if all the ambulances have broken down or been blown up. When PFC Lawrence is holding a pistol to his head screaming at people to make the voices stop, and the psychologists with the Thorazine and straightjackets are a four hour helicopter flight away, who is supposed to be talking to him?

Agreed, but that is true of any profession.

By my own standards, I am a counselor and have counseled the grieving, the wounded, the angry, and the suicidal. I do have training in it, but I am not a professional. (Being in security requires a great deal of alacrity in dealing with stressed out people).

If a psychologist is not available and someone needs serious counseling, I would hope that whoever is available does what he/she can, whether that person is a fellow private, a platoon sergeant, a battalion commander, or a chaplain.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Possibly. I could also see a chaplain trying to counsel soldiers with real psychological issues if the real psychologists were rather seriously unavailable, in the same way that a dentist in the medical corps might be tempted to use some of his painkillers to ease the pain of a seriously wounded soldier if things have gone sufficiently wrong in the heat of combat, or that someone might comandeer a jeep to evacuate wounded if all the ambulances have broken down or been blown up.

Your analogy hinges on amatuer counseling having a beneficial effect, and no detrimental effect, or at least no detriment greater than the benefit.

When PFC Lawrence is holding a pistol to his head screaming at people to make the voices stop, and the psychologists with the Thorazine and straightjackets are a four hour helicopter flight away, who is supposed to be talking to him?

I would venture to say his C.O., who is just as qualified as counselor as the chaplain anyway but who is responsible for the soldier in any case.

 

[drkitten]

Your analogy hinges on amatuer counseling having a beneficial effect, and no detrimental effect, or at least no detriment greater than the benefit.

No, my analogy hinges on the chaplain believing that his counseling provides no detriment greater than the benefit. And your objection hinges on your believing that it doesn't.

 

[ceo_esq]

I would venture to say his C.O., who is just as qualified as counselor as the chaplain anyway but who is responsible for the soldier in any case.

I rather doubt the armed forces would agree, since military chaplains are generally trained in suicide prevention and crisis intervention, as are, incidentally, a great many civilian pastoral counselors.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

No, my analogy hinges on the chaplain believing that his counseling provides no detriment greater than the benefit. And your objection hinges on your believing that it doesn't.

No, my objection is based on a complete lack of evidence that untrained shamans make effective counselors, and your belief, in spite that lack of evidence, that they do. One of those positions is skeptical.

 

[Garrette]

I'm with ceo_esq and drk here. The chaplain may not be qualified enough to satisfy ImaginalDisc, but he is almost certainly more qualified than the CO. In an emergent situation, though, neither is likely to be immediately available.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

I rather doubt the armed forces would agree, since military chaplains are generally trained in suicide prevention and crisis intervention, as are, incidentally, a great many civilian pastoral counselors.

There's no reason why they should be treating anyone for anything in the first place. What is a military unit doing with a shaman around?

 

[Garrette]

No, my objection is based on a complete lack of evidence that untrained shamans make effective counselors, and your belief, in spite that lack of evidence, that they do. One of those positions is skeptical.

It seems also to be based on an impractical notion of the likely facts on the ground.

Full-fledged psychologists are never right there to handle emergencies.

One option for handling emergencies until full-fledged psychologists arrive may be to do nothing or to beg Private Johnny to not doing anything just yet, but I do not consider it an effective option.

 

[drkitten]

If a psychologist is not available and someone needs serious counseling, I would hope that whoever is available does what he/she can, whether that person is a fellow private, a platoon sergeant, a battalion commander, or a chaplain.

But part of "doing what he/she can" implies a deference to better trained and more highly qualified people, yes?

For example, if you were around :

By my own standards, I am a counselor and have counseled the grieving, the wounded, the angry, and the suicidal. I do have training in it, but I am not a professional. (Being in security requires a great deal of alacrity in dealing with stressed out people).

... what I can do would probably involve helping you and deferring to your training. I recognize that.

Most clergy have fairly extensive training in counseling (ID's protests notwithstanding); it's part of the standard curriculum of any seminary. I suspect that you'd help and defer to the padre for the same reason.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

It seems also to be based on an impractical notion of the likely facts on the ground.

Full-fledged psychologists are never right there to handle emergencies.

One option for handling emergencies until full-fledged psychologists arrive may be to do nothing or to beg Private Johnny to not doing anything just yet, but I do not consider it an effective option.

Clearly someone needs to be able to handle crisies, but that someone does not have to be a shaman. Why not choose the cook or the medic? A chaplain is no more qualified than anyone else.

 

[drkitten]

No, my objection is based on a complete lack of evidence that untrained shamans make effective counselors, and your belief, in spite that lack of evidence, that they do.

You're personalizing again, fool.

 

[Garrette]

There's no reason why they should be treating anyone for anything in the first place. What is a military unit doing with a shaman around?

You might lend a bit more credibility to your position if you don't overstate your case. Shaman may be a religious term, just as chaplain is, but they are not interchangeable.

Nor are the counseling duties of a chaplain interchangeable with their religious duties, though they may overlap in instances.

Were I a battalion commander needing to tell my chaplain what I expected of him, I would say something akin to this:

You are responsible for monitoring the overall morale of the unit, and you will perform that function in coordination with the Command Sergeant Major. You will provide religious services to meet the religious requirements of the soldiers, and assist those of a denomination you cannot accomodate in finding alternate venues. In addition, you will provide counseling services as needed, as requested, up to the limits of your training and the demands of the situation.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

You're personalizing again, fool.

You're ignoring previous posts that refute your claims, again.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2246578#post2246578

 

[Garrette]

But part of "doing what he/she can" implies a deference to better trained and more highly qualified people, yes?

For example, if you were around :



... what I can do would probably involve helping you and deferring to your training. I recognize that.

Most clergy have fairly extensive training in counseling (ID's protests notwithstanding); it's part of the standard curriculum of any seminary. I suspect that you'd help and defer to the padre for the same reason.

I think we agree, drk. I think your ability to be more precise in your terminology sometimes indicates otherwise.