Working Model of Perpetual Motion

AgingYoung said:
Orangutan,

If there were energies injected into this model would you expect the reverse of direction. If you look at the graph it is spinning in the negative direction (clockwise) then spins ccw. Wouldn't you expect that energy would force it to continue spinning cw?

Gene
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It's probably model dependent. I have built simple cars (body wheels and suspension systems) in other modeling tools that due to feed-back in the suspension system have caused them to begin to oscillate and the whole car has literally flown straight up. This is because the simulation has tried to resolve a collision and the overall energy introduced by moving the components led to a upward velocity. The problem in that case was an non dampened suspension spring.

Another thing to consider is that the makers of working model have tried to model the known physical laws. Including conservation of momentum and the like. Any model that breaks this principle shows that their model is not working, not that there are other physical laws to be discovered.

If you do indeed find a way of modeling and detecting feedback loops in constraint chains I'm sure they would like to hear about it.

Just out of Curiosity are you using the free version of working model? If so how do you save your model or do you have to build it every time you turn your computer on?
 
AgingYoung said:
Thanks for your response, Raja.

Could you kindly give me a link where this happened...
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Well, it's entirely possible that I thought incorrectly, but I will check when I have the free time.

It's also possible that what with all the talk about the challenge, I simply assumed that you had read the Challenge rules and FAQ, where it's clearly stated. Certainly these links were mentioned frequently in the previous perpetual motion thread. In any case, if you hadn't heard it before, now you have. I also strongly suggest you read the aforementioned Challenge Rules and FAQ.

One other thing you ought to consider: When it comes down to designing a protocol, it would help if one knew some of the specifics of what will be tested. Various ideas for producing perpetual motion would be tested in different ways, one would think. If you want specific testing ideas, I would presume you'd need to provide specific information about what you think will happen.

Remember, in the thread that began this all, user "I am me" tried to suggest a test where he would not give any details of how his machine worked. This was not acceptable.

Would you care to address my other points at all? Specifically, why are you concerned about events in the future (a test protocol, dealing with the repercussions of a successful test) which can not happen until you actually create a working model?
 
AgingYoung said:
Still another reason for starting this thread is to challenge people's imagination. I know most doubt a pmm is possible but I'm asking you to suspend your disbelief and imagine that hp 'what if?'
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This is like asking, "let's say for sake of arguement that gravity doesn't exist." or "Let's pretend that pi is 50." or "what would a car look like if it ran on love."

a pmm that produces work doesn't exist. theoretically a ppm that moves forever could occur in a pure vacuum. But it still isn't true ppm and even in black space there isn't a perfect vacuum.

There must be a source of energy to drive work. there must be an energy potential.

Don't waste time on proving ppm. Look for a new source of energy, that's where the clever idea can come from.

I'd be more likely to believe that you can set up a potential across universes and that energy potential can be used for work, but not ppm.
 
Thanks Orangutan,

I'm using the free version. When I'm not looking at a model I put the machine in standby. One annoying thing that happens at times seems to be some sort of memory problem that causes it to crash. If you look at the graph you'll notice the degradation of the graphics around the slider at the bottom. This session I have 3 windows going. What I usually do is clear the calculations on a window but for some reason after a while it crashes.

Again, thanks. I really appreciate your comments.

Gene
 
How long must a pmm run for before being decared "Perpetual"?
A year?
A century?
A thousand years? (I can't spel "millennium").

Is there a magic number?
Does ball bearing failure constitute "stopping"?

It seems obvious that if any machine runs long enough , something will wear out , if only through vapour pressure or devitrification.
 
It's easy to come up with a simulation that appears nothing like real life. Just ignore a few basic or lesser-understood physical parameters and it'll do amazing things.
 
Big Al,

When you say...
It's easy to come up with a simulation that appears nothing like real life.
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I don't know if you realize how accurate that is. I think this gives a better picture...

  • it's next to impossible to simulate reality.

Gene
 
drkitten,

Some of the energy a weight generates as it falls is going to be consumed to overcome the inertia of the structure holding it along with other weights in addition to frictions. Do you consider that work (overcoming inertia and friction) to be part of the equation?

Also is there a lower limit of the energy ratio you’ve mentioned? Would you consider a ratio of 1.0000000000001:1 (Eout:Ein) to be perpetual motion?

Gene
 
Any "over-unity" would be considered PM, provided it could be measured. All testing equipment, no matter how sensitive, will have a certain degree of "tolerance" that affects measurement precision. But I do believe it's a moot point until such a working device exists.
 
AgingYoung said:
Some of the energy a weight generates as it falls is going to be consumed to overcome the inertia of the structure holding it along with other weights in addition to frictions. Do you consider that work (overcoming inertia and friction) to be part of the equation?
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You are getting ahead of yourself. It took more energy to raise the weight to a given height than the weight has stored as potential energy. You are already at a deficit before the weight falls.

In this example, a perpetual motion machine would be a weight that falls and has enough energy to raise itself back up to the same level so it is ready to drop again. After the initial input of raising the weight the first time, the machine would run on its own forever.
 
qayak said:
You are getting ahead of yourself. It took more energy to raise the weight to a given height than the weight has stored as potential energy. You are already at a deficit before the weight falls.

In this example, a perpetual motion machine would be a weight that falls and has enough energy to raise itself back up to the same level so it is ready to drop again. After the initial input of raising the weight the first time, the machine would run on its own forever.
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That's true, but if a ppm was designed than all the energy it took toraise the weight would be made up over time plus the energy it took to contruct the device, the energy it took to make the parts for the device, the energy it took to mine the materials to make the device,...

well, you get the idea.
 
joobz said:
That's true, but if a ppm was designed than all the energy it took toraise the weight would be made up over time plus the energy it took to contruct the device, the energy it took to make the parts for the device, the energy it took to mine the materials to make the device,...

well, you get the idea.
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Not necessarily. A PM machine doesn't have to create more energy than it uses, it just can't lose any of the energy that it has. What we are talking about is 100% efficiency. If it creates more energy than it uses then it is more than 100% efficient.
 
Orangutan,

I've been thinking about what you said..
It's probably model dependent . I have built simple cars (body wheels and suspension systems) in other modeling tools that due to feed-back in the suspension system have caused them to begin to oscillate and the whole car has literally flown straight up.
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I agree with your point...
  • prone to injecting energy into the system if not constructed carefully
In the case of the suspension system you were designing if the forces that were accumulating were for the most part downward the ground would most likely have redirected them straight up. In any case I think they moved toward the path of least resistance.

The cog of the part (#17) that I was tracking had its momentum spinning ccw. It was 40° past 12 o'clock. I think given its momentum (and that of the rest of the parts) if any energy had accumulated (as was probably the case) they would have caused the model to continue to spin ccw only at a greater velocity. Those forces would have taken that path of least resistance.

I do think that the reaction shown in the graph is model dependent. I think it is the function of the principle I was testing. What do you think?

I was also curious if you were designing that suspension system for a class or was it something that was going to be produced? If it were for production how long does it take from design to production? Thanks.

Gene
 
Brian,

I think the best instrument to measure the output of a gravity wheel would be the wheel itself. If the wheel can spin overcoming its own inertia and friction it would be over-unity. That was my point.

In wm2d if you make a wheel, pin it to the background so it can spin then place a weight at precisely 12 o'clock it won't move. It will be perfectly balanced. Now rotate the circle by 1/10° (will be ccw) and run the sim.

The weight will spin practically all the way back to 12 but won't continue ccw. That's with zero friction. You can't model those perfect conditions in the real world. An actual model that can continue to move in the same direction overcoming inertia and friction is doing work and has a cop over 100%.

Gene
 
qayak said:
Not necessarily. A PM machine doesn't have to create more energy than it uses, it just can't lose any of the energy that it has. What we are talking about is 100% efficiency. If it creates more energy than it uses then it is more than 100% efficient.
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Understand, but even then modeling wouldn't prove it is possible.
will you also account for the loss due to atomic virbrations of the materials in motion? Are you going to account for viscous losses from the creep of the material you make it out of? It may take millions of years, but it is there.
 
Noise and heat energy - did the model take these factors into account. Unless the machine works in total silence, some energy is being lost as acoustic energy and heat. You can't get away from it.

It's called entropy, man!
 
AgingYoung said:
Brian,

I think the best instrument to measure the output of a gravity wheel would be the wheel itself. If the wheel can spin overcoming its own inertia and friction * it would be over-unity. That was my point.

*Noise and heat energy
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I should have said, 'all possible losses yet still manages to turn.'

Gene

edit: it occurred to me after I posted this ....any heat loss would be caused by friction. If the wheel would turn and overcome friction it would naturally be making up for any loss due to heat. Similarly if it had to make a little noise or a lot of noise to turn yet still turned it would none the less be turning. Any wheel that could turn would obviously be overcoming any obstacle it would need to overcome.

edit II: the 2nd law of Thermodynamics is a separate concept
 
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