Women

[David Henson]

Suuuure. You missed this entire wall of text. I believe that.

It was an entire wall of text!

I'm just messing with you, I will get back to it. Its not going anywhere soon.

 

[Skeptic]

I think his point is that the bible isn't as anti-woman as it is often portrayed. It's true that by the standards of the time and place, the bible was practically a radical feminist bleeding-heart liberal commie thing (with its concern for the poor, giving women at least some important rights, etc.) but still, 3000 years or so have passed since then, and some things changed.

 

[Hokulele]

Is there room for two?

*sits down next to Hokulele*

If you can scoot over a bit, I've got ibuprofen and chocolate. I assume Hokulele is bringing the bacon.

C'mon over! According to Leviticus 15:20, it is officially unclean, which I guess means we get to keep it since I doubt David wants unclean furniture. Odd how this chapter basically tells us that a perfectly natural function, one that we don't have any control over (other than through methods provided by science), is a sin.

Next, let's go find a nice Ferrari to sit on/in. I've always wanted one of those!

 

[TraneWreck]

It is unfair to judge ancient practices and customs by modern standards. What is thought to be demeaning to women today wasn't thought of in that way even 200 years ago in democratic society, let alone in ancient Bible times.

According to you, the Bible represents the immutable morality of God. They had the Bible back then, what do we know about morality that isn't contained in the Bible?

 

[Trent Wray]

I went there and all I could find was the Deathclaw.

I've concluded that David has what he claims is a thorough understanding of his bible and a few "god experiences" under his belt. These threads are his way of

1) discussing what he enjoys, the bible, with people he hopes to find intelligent conversations with and maybe --- god forbid --- the semblance of a friend
2) for those who want him to actually prove his fantasy/god --- he takes out his frustration with his odd deprecating tactic of "you suck but I suck more so I'm better" to cover over his disappointment that all he has to back up his fantasy and life spent focussing on this is a book and a few experiences

 

[David Henson]

That's why Jehovah is referred to as a "She" as often as a "He" and as "Mother" as often as "Father." Oh wait.

Jehovah is referred to in the masculine but Jesus Christ is prophetically referred to as wisdom which is in the feminine. It's a language thing, like a spannish table. [Fawltey Towers Reference: I know, I learned it from a book.]

It sounds like you're going for a separate but equal argument here. Would you be as pleased with your theology if man was created as a helper for woman?

Yes [looks at mother and sister through the corner of eyes] absolutely!

And why the man is called the helpmate (of helpmeet) of the woman so often in the bible. Because they're equals. Except for the whole concept of women being the property of men.....and oh wait. That never happens either.

Helpmate? You know they have some nice translations from this century, too.

The idea of a husband as an owner of his wife was a part of the way people, man and woman, thought in primitive cultures such as Israel. God wasn't going to tell people how to think. He allowed it, but regulated it against abuse. So Proverbs 19:14 says the inheritance of fathers is a house and wealth but a discreet wife is from Jehovah and Deuteronomy 21:14 says that they couldn't sell a wife for money. The bride price was a compensation for the loss to the family not a purchase.

Tolerant of what ancient customs? Rape perhaps? And what were the women being protected from - other men maybe? He allowed men to take women as concubines, which is just a euphemism for sex slave or rape victim, take your pick. (I think that's what god said to all his chosen men - "See those women over there. Take your pick! Enjoy. It's for their own protection.")

Sometimes I think that the negativity of skepticism can be misleading to the skeptical. That sort of emotional complaint needs a more specific reference. Provide scripture, please.

Why would god have to be tolerant of certain customs or regulate the treatment of women for protection from other men, when he could have just kicked some male butt and told them that women were their equals and they should be treated as human beings, instead of property and sexual vessels?

Because, as I said, God gave the earth to man as in mankind as stewards to do up to a point, what they wanted.

And yet 200 years ago, women were still the property of men and weren't allowed to vote. Thanks, Bible!

Thanks democracy. As the Encyclopaedia Judaica said: “The prophetic comparisons of the love of God for Israel to the love of a husband for his wife can only have been made in a society in which women were respected.” The advice of women was respected in Bible times. Jehovah himself compared himself to women (Isaiah 42:14; 49:15; 66:13) and Jehovah told Abraham to listen to the advice of his wife, Sarah. (Genesis 21:10-12) To listen to "the law of your mother." (Proverbs 1:8)

Do you think that women in ancient times were happy to be sex slaves of conquering tribes? Do you think that the regular drudge slaves were jealous of the sex slaves of their masters? Do you think the women felt any better because they were told some sort of sick perverted god told them it was their duty to rape women? Don't forget that alongside these men that we're "not allowed to judge by our standards" were real live women, whose lives were an absolute misery.

Again, I need specific references to respond.

Enough to outnumber all the women who were merely pieces of property, victims of rape and incest, and temptresses of weak-willed men? And I've never understood why women buy into the christian mindset, except that so many women still have a hard time believing that they are in charge of their own lives, and instead will live with men who treat them in less-than-equal ways for "their own good" or "their own protection."

Due to the same sort of assumptions out of ignorance that you are making against the Bible?

 

[David Henson]

According to you, the Bible represents the immutable morality of God. They had the Bible back then, what do we know about morality that isn't contained in the Bible?

The morality issue from a Christian / Atheist debate perspective is ridiculous. What is the point?

 

[TraneWreck]

The morality issue from a Christian / Atheist debate perspective is ridiculous. What is the point?

The point is that you argue that God is the source of morality. You think the Bible represents the word of that God.

A society in the past that had access to the word of God, had access to the only moral authority you recognize. What knowledge did they lack to justify your excusing thier bad behavior? Cultures change, but not the Rock of Ages. Why is slavery wrong now, but ok back then? Did God change his mind?

 

[David Henson]

C'mon over! According to Leviticus 15:20, it is officially unclean, which I guess means we get to keep it since I doubt David wants unclean furniture. Odd how this chapter basically tells us that a perfectly natural function, one that we don't have any control over (other than through methods provided by science), is a sin.

Next, let's go find a nice Ferrari to sit on/in. I've always wanted one of those!

You are aware of the fact that the Mosaic law only applied to the nation of Israel and was terminated by Jehovah himself and so no longer in effect for about 2,000 years, don't you. You and the others are welcome on my couch and Ferrari any time.

Hey, I like the sound of that. My Ferrari [grabs the keyboard like a steering wheel and says "Vroom! Vroom!]

 

[David Henson]

I think his point is that the bible isn't as anti-woman as it is often portrayed. It's true that by the standards of the time and place, the bible was practically a radical feminist bleeding-heart liberal commie thing (with its concern for the poor, giving women at least some important rights, etc.) but still, 3000 years or so have passed since then, and some things changed.

Awesome avatar!

 

[David Henson]

So, the Bible reflects the culture at the time it was written?

Of course it does.

 

[David Henson]

The point is that you argue that God is the source of morality.

Before we go on where do I argue that?

You think the Bible represents the word of that God.

Correct.

A society in the past that had access to the word of God, had access to the only moral authority you recognize.

Again, where are you getting this idea?

What knowledge did they lack to justify your excusing their bad behavior?

[Looks around] Who me?!

Cultures change, but not the Rock of Ages. Why is slavery wrong now, but ok back then? Did God change his mind?

Did God change his mind about slavery?

Why does such a thinking man/woman as you appear to be make such careless assumptions?

 

[Foster Zygote]

The morality issue from a Christian / Atheist debate perspective is ridiculous. What is the point?

Why is that?

 

[ZeeGerman]

You are aware of the fact that the Mosaic law only applied to the nation of Israel and was terminated by Jehovah himself and so no longer in effect for about 2,000 years, don't you.

Not according to
Matthew 5:17-19

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Better get a new couch then.

Zee

 

[I Ratant]

The morality issue from a Christian / Atheist debate perspective is ridiculous. What is the point?

.
Atheists are moral.
Many christians can be moral also, when they apply themselves.
I expect any knowledge you might be passing on to us will be as ignorant as the Dominicans that composed "The Malleus Maleficarum", Heinrich Kramer and James Sprenger, friars who wrote the book on detecting and punishing witches in 1486.
Your lack of knowledge on every subject you have broached is probably even worse that what was considered fact 524 years ago.

 

[TraneWreck]

Before we go on where do I argue that?

Again, where are you getting this idea?

Feel free to distance yourself from other Christians. Frome whence do moral come, then?

It's real easy to say, "I don't think that, here's what I think______."

[Looks around] Who me?!

Uh, yeah, you:

"It is unfair to judge ancient practices and customs by modern standards. What is thought to be demeaning to women today wasn't thought of in that way even 200 years ago in democratic society, let alone in ancient Bible times."

That's an argument that we can't judge past cultures by current moral standards. I would love to hear an argument about how this is possible. What do we understand about morality now that we didn't know then? We have the same Bible, and, if you'll recall, those people are much more closely tied to the folks who got the info from God. If anything, they would be more accurate about the God's intent.

Did God change his mind about slavery?

Why does such a thinking man/woman as you appear to be make such careless assumptions?

That article was rubbish. Here's the quote it uses to show that Israelis treated the slave trade harshly:

"If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you." Deuteronomy 24:7

Notice selling ISRAELIS into slavery is punishable by death.

How does God feel about non-Israelis?

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Is the New Testament any better? Even the article you linked says no, it contains this little gem:

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

and this:

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

and this:

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

Yes, the Bible alternately gleefully supports, tacitly acknowledges, or gives moral support to the institution of slavery.

 

[Sun Countess]

Jehovah is referred to in the masculine but Jesus Christ is prophetically referred to as wisdom which is in the feminine. It's a language thing, like a spannish table.

So Jesus was a woman?!?

The idea of a husband as an owner of his wife was a part of the way people, man and woman, thought in primitive cultures such as Israel. God wasn't going to tell people how to think.

Didn't he give them a whole bunch of laws telling them exactly what they should do?

Sometimes I think that the negativity of skepticism can be misleading to the skeptical. That sort of emotional complaint needs a more specific reference. Provide scripture, please.

Scroll down for these.

Because, as I said, God gave the earth to man as in mankind as stewards to do up to a point, what they wanted.

He was sometimes in on the action, ordering rapes and genocides on a whim.

Again, I need specific references to respond.

My pleasure. Shall we start with one of my favorites, from Genesis Chapter 16:

1 Now Sarai, Abram's wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; 2 so she said to Abram, "The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her." Abram agreed to what Sarai said. 3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4 He slept with Hagar, and she conceived.
Does this describe consensual sex, or the handing over of property in the form of a woman?

Exodus Chapter 21:

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

They can dress it up as "marriage" but it's not consensual. It's selling property and then deciding who gets to rape it first or most often.

Moses gets in on the action in Numbers Chapter 31:
Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
Oh, gee, I wonder what they were going to do with them that they didn't want to do with the non-virgin women or the men. Heavy labor?

God promotes rape and voyeurism at the same time in 2 Samuel, Chapter 12: Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
I'm sure the wives appreciated being raped while the public looked on.

Deuteronomy has lots of cool rules regarding rape in chapters 21 and 22:

22:28-29 If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

22:23-24
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

21:10-14
When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
Are you getting the picture that none of this is consensual and that the rules aren't making anything fairer or nicer for the women involved in this brutality?

Judges (21:10-14) is great for the greatest gang-rape in fictional history; it's a two-parter:

"This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
<snip>
Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance.

And let's not forget the lovely virgin Mary, raped by the great man/woman/holy spirit him/herself.

So explain again how women were allowed to be treated like property for their own protection.....?

 

[Hokulele]

You are aware of the fact that the Mosaic law only applied to the nation of Israel and was terminated by Jehovah himself and so no longer in effect for about 2,000 years, don't you. You and the others are welcome on my couch and Ferrari any time.

Hey, I like the sound of that. My Ferrari [grabs the keyboard like a steering wheel and says "Vroom! Vroom!]

Ah, so the protections for women offered by the verses in Exodus and Deuteronomy mentioned your OP are no longer in force?


Hmmm...

 

[Dancing David]

You are aware of the fact that the Mosaic law only applied to the nation of Israel and was terminated by Jehovah himself and so no longer in effect for about 2,000 years, don't you. You and the others are welcome on my couch and Ferrari any time.

Hey, I like the sound of that. My Ferrari [grabs the keyboard like a steering wheel and says "Vroom! Vroom!]

Uh huh, sure and where did YHVH say that exactly?

 

[Elizabeth I]

If you can scoot over a bit, I've got ibuprofen and chocolate. I assume Hokulele is bringing the bacon.

I have shrimp cocktail! And steamed lobster with drawn butter!

Next, let's go find a nice Ferrari to sit on/in. I've always wanted one of those!

Naw, let's just find somebody with a lot of money and sit on the cash. Then we can buy anything we want.