Woman paralyzed by flu shot

Paradox74

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I found this news article on the AOL news this morning:

http://www.aolhealth.com/health/fal.../health/fall-health/flu-shot-desiree-jennings

As far as I can remember, there is no casual (or is it called direct?) connection between vaccination and autism but I've yet to say anything about a connection between flu shots and dystonia.

What are your thoughts on this subject?
Are there any legitimate sources that addresses this issue? (NOTE: I don't consider Jim Carrey or Jenny McCarthy to be "experts" on this subject so, leave them out).

Thanks in advance.
 
There are always going to be very odd and very rare reactions to any vaccination. Tragic, but not cause for alarm unless lots of people are getting dystonia from the vax.
 
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Lisa Simpson said:
There are always going to be very odd and very rare reactions to any vaccination. Tragic, but not cause for alarm unless lots of people are getting dystonia from the vax.
Click to expand...

Is there any reason to believe this is evne a reaction to the vaccine? Just because it happened after the vaccine doesn't mean the vaccine caused it (moreover, 10 days after the vaccine?)

That's the same sort of reasoning that got that "vaccine causes autism" nonsense going in the first place ("my son got an MMR shot and BAM, 3 months later, autism")
 
Paradox74 said:
I found this news article on the AOL news this morning:

http://www.aolhealth.com/health/fal.../health/fall-health/flu-shot-desiree-jennings

As far as I can remember, there is no casual (or is it called direct?) connection between vaccination and autism but I've yet to say anything about a connection between flu shots and dystonia.

What are your thoughts on this subject?
Are there any legitimate sources that addresses this issue? (NOTE: I don't consider Jim Carrey or Jenny McCarthy to be "experts" on this subject so, leave them out).

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

I think we need some more time to get a clear picture of what's actually happening in this specific example. The diagnosis is from a family doctor and he's changed his diagnosis since the news story broke. Originally he was explaining that it was pre-existing dystonia and now she's saying it's "acute, viral post immunization encephalopathy and mercury toxicity with secondary respiratory and neurological deficits" - a completely unrelated condition.

There's clearly something wrong with this woman, but my unfortunately cynical guess is that she may have had a degenerative pre-existing condition (dystonia or perhaps just somatization) with poor prognosis, and is now recasting it as a vaccine-induced injury to cash in on the hope of getting one of those multimillion-dollar settlements.

I don't normally accuse people of blatant fraud like this, but the situation does look very suspicious.

It could take years for something like this to wind through the courts.
 
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Paradox74 said:
I found this news article on the AOL news this morning:

http://www.aolhealth.com/health/fal.../health/fall-health/flu-shot-desiree-jennings

As far as I can remember, there is no casual (or is it called direct?) connection between vaccination and autism but I've yet to say anything about a connection between flu shots and dystonia.
Click to expand...

Steven Novella at NeuroLogica and Orac at Respectful Insolence have both written extensively about this case. Quick summary: the media reports are inaccurate at best, the condition is not dystonia, and the vaccination had nothing to do with it.
 
pgwenthold said:
Is there any reason to believe this is evne a reaction to the vaccine? Just because it happened after the vaccine doesn't mean the vaccine caused it (moreover, 10 days after the vaccine?)

That's the same sort of reasoning that got that "vaccine causes autism" nonsense going in the first place ("my son got an MMR shot and BAM, 3 months later, autism")
Click to expand...

I hadn't read the other articles posted above, so I was going on the assumption that she really had dystonia. However, my point stands. There will always be odd and rare reactions to any drug.
 
Lisa Simpson said:
I hadn't read the other articles posted above, so I was going on the assumption that she really had dystonia. However, my point stands. There will always be odd and rare reactions to any drug.
Click to expand...

It's important to understand that the response to vaccines are usually a mild form of what would have been the response to the illness.

If a patient gets a complication directly caused by the vaccine, it's very likely the patient would have had the same complication but worse from the illness in question.

Just as an example, GBR has a baseline rate of morbidity and mortality in the unvaccinated population because people get flu and GBR is a complication of flu. A patient can also get GBR from vaccination, but it is less likely and milder. So: if flu season is upon us, vaccine reduces the incidence of GBR, even though it can be one cause.
 
Lisa Simpson said:
I hadn't read the other articles posted above, so I was going on the assumption that she really had dystonia. However, my point stands. There will always be odd and rare reactions to any drug.
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter if it is dystonia or not. I ask again, what reason is there to think it has anything to do with vaccination?

Post hoc ergo propter hoc is not supportable.
 
blutoski said:
I think we need some more time to get a clear picture of what's actually happening in this specific example. The diagnosis is from a family doctor and he's changed his diagnosis since the news story broke.
Click to expand...

I don't believe it is the same doctor. After the hype, she went to see the second doctor, who is a total quack. This is a guy who injects urine into the body as a treatment.
 
Lisa Simpson said:
I hadn't read the other articles posted above, so I was going on the assumption that she really had dystonia. However, my point stands. There will always be odd and rare reactions to any drug.
Click to expand...
Not to be too nit-picky; but in "one-time" events with no rational basis for connection, it is essentially impossible to distinguish coincidence from real reactions. As I recall from the 1970s, drug manufacturers had to advertise all reported "adverse reactions" in package inserts and that led to long lists. It seems to me that they now try to segregate the reports according to how likely they are to represent real side effects (I have not looked at a package insert in many years).

I must repeat that the woman was (hopefully, past tense is appropriate) very ill. I don't wish to debate the semantic/philosophical question of whether a predisposition to a psychological response makes her problem a true, rare reaction to the jab. I can accept that. What matters is that she gets appropriate treatment and, I hope, recovers (as seems to have happened).
 
pgwenthold said:
I don't believe it is the same doctor. After the hype, she went to see the second doctor, who is a total quack. This is a guy who injects urine into the body as a treatment.
Click to expand...

Ah. So she sought out some sort of MCS quack to cook up a more lucrative diagnosis.

The question really comes down to whether the patient is malingering or if this is iatrogenic.

Maybe a little from column A and a little from column B.
 
JJM said:
Not to be too nit-picky; but in "one-time" events with no rational basis for connection, it is essentially impossible to distinguish coincidence from real reactions. As I recall from the 1970s, drug manufacturers had to advertise all reported "adverse reactions" in package inserts and that led to long lists. It seems to me that they now try to segregate the reports according to how likely they are to represent real side effects (I have not looked at a package insert in many years).
Click to expand...

My understanding is that the US and Canada have the same rule of thumb: anything reported 5% more in the active group than in the placebo group, in Phase III.
 
pgwenthold said:
I don't believe it is the same doctor. After the hype, she went to see the second doctor, who is a total quack. This is a guy who injects urine into the body as a treatment.
Click to expand...
:eye-poppi

Not only that, but people with experience with dystonia patients say this will be the first time in history someone with dystonia can walk backwards.
 
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