Merged Woman Killed by Illegal Immigrant in San Francisco

[Dr. Keith]

This is america though, you have to always assume there is a gun in anything.

Thanks for the reminder. And where the gun is lacking I'm sure a swimming pool is assumed.

 

[Ranb]

I'm interested in your findings. It's hard to imagine 2 pounds of pressure to push a key. An old typewriter key, maybe and there is the issue of many different keyboards from light touch to harder touch.

A net search turns up several sources saying 1-2 ounces, so clearly 2 pounds is a bogus example.

I unlocked the shipyard's chemistry lab to weigh an aluminum bracket (2.3 ounces) and a D cell battery (5 ounces). Nearly every key on the keyboards I tried at work during lunch were depressed with the 2.3 ounce weight, all depressed with the 5 ounce weight.

I read that the jury was not allowed or did not in any case try the trigger themselves. It seems that this is an example of the defense completely snowing the jury. I want this guy as my lawyer if I'm ever accused of shooting someone.

 

[Ranb]

I remember seeing an analysis of an accidental shooting at shooting range during a competition.

The bullet in question was fired high because the weapon doubled, went over the berm, under the baffle through two walls, bounced off a ceiling tile and right into the temple of a teenager just sitting there. As we can see these things just happen.

Which is why a shooter should be pointing the gun only at what is intend to be shot. I imagine that a competition gun may have been altered for a lighter trigger pull. Some events require a minimum trigger pull; usually 4 lbs or more if I recall. This makes doubling less likely.

 

[LTC8K6]

I remember seeing an analysis of an accidental shooting at shooting range during a competition.

The bullet in question was fired high because the weapon doubled, went over the berm, under the baffle through two walls, bounced off a ceiling tile and right into the temple of a teenager just sitting there. As we can see these things just happen.

I remember that shooting. I wish you would link to it so that we can refresh ourselves on what actually happened.

I believe the range was not properly designed?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I unlocked the shipyard's chemistry lab to weigh an aluminum bracket (2.3 ounces) and a D cell battery (5 ounces). Nearly every key on the keyboards I tried at work during lunch were depressed with the 2.3 ounce weight, all depressed with the 5 ounce weight.

I read that the jury was not allowed or did not in any case try the trigger themselves. It seems that this is an example of the defense completely snowing the jury. I want this guy as my lawyer if I'm ever accused of shooting someone.

I have a spring weight, you hang things from it and measure the weight it pulls on the spring. It would be interesting to measure the trigger pull from different parts on the trigger, the middle where your finger rests and the tip. But I don't have a gun.

Maybe you can find a source that looks at trigger dynamics.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I remember that shooting. I wish you would link to it so that we can refresh ourselves on what actually happened.

I believe the range was not properly designed?

No, the berm wasn't high enough, can't find the link though.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Which is why a shooter should be pointing the gun only at what is intend to be shot. I imagine that a competition gun may have been altered for a lighter trigger pull. Some events require a minimum trigger pull; usually 4 lbs or more if I recall. This makes doubling less likely.

He was, the recoil that caused it to double made the muzzle rise out of position. The problem was being on a range that had insufficient overhead cover to stop rounds aimed high.

It had a baffle to do that, but to get the range for shooting the shooting line was moved up. Thus giving it a small area that it could miss the berm and baffle.

Of course there is also the regular lost gun, accidental discharge in bathrooms from concealed carry people. But that is expected and not something to be worried about.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I remember that shooting. I wish you would link to it so that we can refresh ourselves on what actually happened.

I believe the range was not properly designed?

Somewhat, it was also that the shooting line was moved forward, so that it could miss the baffle and berm, If the shooter was 10' further back it would have had to hit one or the other. Or possibly had to high an arc to be a major hazard.

 

[pgwenthold]

I read that the jury was not allowed or did not in any case try the trigger themselves. It seems that this is an example of the defense completely snowing the jury.

And a failure by the prosecution.

I think we agree, the prosecution blew the case.

It's the prosecution's job to prove their case. It's the defense's job to try to create doubt.

All within the framework of the rules of the court.

If it is so obvious about the gun, the prosecution should have shown it. They failed to do so.

 

[Minoosh]

Last night I saw a guy wearing a sweatshirt that said "Illegal immigrant look-alike."

I thought that was funny and just wanted to post it in a thread having something to do with illegal immigration.

The U.S. can't even keep a junkie pothead out of the country for an appreciable length of time. Trump is the only recent president who can honestly say nothing about the man's crimes occurred on Trump's watch.

There is a reason for sanctuary city status that has nothing to do with being a bleeding heart. You want someone who has been trafficked to be able to testify against the actual traffickers. Keeping illegal immigrants afraid of police is one tactic used by gangsters to prevent whistle-blowers. And just as a guess, I think San Francisco probably has more than its share of illegal Asian immigrants, and The Wall isn't going to do much to stop those. In fact throwing a lot of unnecessary resources toward building The Wall may make it more likely that marine traffic is not properly vetted. Priorities matter. I'm amazed at the number of folks who think the U.S. is doing nothing to fight illegal immigration.

 

[bagels]

Because that's not what was argued in court.

The prosecutor argued that Zarate stole the gun and brought it to the Pier, then waved it around before aiming towards the crowd and Kate Steinle and firing at her. Thus he was guilty of murder.

The Defence argued that Zarate found the gun under the seat he was on, wrapped up in a T-Shirt, that a group of people that were around where he was sitting but left before he arrived had hidden the gun there. They used CCTV footage as evidence of those things. They also showed that the model of gun was prone to accidental discharges, and argued that when he went to unwrap the gun it discharged accidentally as the model is prone to do. The the trajectory of the bullet was down, and that Kate Steinle was killed by the bullet after it ricocheted off the concrete of the Pier. Thus is was an accidental shooting.

The Jury had to determine if the evidence supported the stories given, and if it did support the defence's story, was it enough to cast reasonable doubt on the charges.

No, the police came up with that story.

This thread needs merging with the one we are already discussing this on. I shall notify the mods.

Ok if he never made statements that he intentionally handled, aimed and fired the weapon, and there was CCTV footage consistent with his story, then reasonable doubt starts to become more plausible. I doubt very much the gun fired without the trigger being pulled though, but I didn't hear the testimony about it.

It seems plausible to me he picked up the gun, fiddled with it including the trigger, and the light trigger surprised him as it went off. The prosecutor probably should have tried to make that case.

Edit: after watching this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch7si_VQsGA

I have no problem with the jury's verdict. I had no idea a gun could fire so easily from such a short drop. Consider me enlightened.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Well it seems to be the move now to make it so loosing a firearm is legal, but finding one is a felony.

 

[BobTheCoward]

And a failure by the prosecution.

I think we agree, the prosecution blew the case.

It's the prosecution's job to prove their case. It's the defense's job to try to create doubt.

All within the framework of the rules of the court.

If it is so obvious about the gun, the prosecution should have shown it. They failed to do so.

As a prosecutor, taking the position that an accidental trigger pull doesn't happen could be a problem. There will be regular cases of cops making that claim.