Merged Woman Killed by Illegal Immigrant in San Francisco

[Skeptic Ginger]

What your saying was actual testimony?

First, the police interview was discredited. It's hard to know what his actual testimony would have been or was, he wasn't the brightest bulb on the string.

So I have to go by the scenario the defense attorney presented and the fact there are no videos of him waving the gun around or even holding it. They presented the material bunched up around the trigger scenario.

You can believe whatever you want to believe about what happened but the issue is a decision in a court of law, beyond reasonable doubt. It's supposed to keep innocent people out of jail though we all know that happens anyway.

The defense presented reasonable doubt that the only way the gun could have fired was with Zarate having his finger on the trigger. They presented an alternative that cannot be reasonably ruled out.

 

[Ranb]

I understand that there was reasonable doubt and that the prosecution screwed up.

I also read claims that there were accidental discharges when it seems that some of them were clearly negligent. I'm also reading claims that 4.4 pound trigger pulls are "hair triggers". That is just plain stupid. There are long lists of negligent (some called accidental) discharges associated with Sig Sauer pistols. The articles I read don't limit their claims to a certain model (like the Sig Sauer P239), just the brand as a whole. One article said that a pistol without a safety keeps ready to fire at all times; impossible without a round int he chamber.

The amount of fail in the media reporting of this case is huge. I wasn't at the trial and have not read the testimony, just the sometimes incompetent reporting associated with it.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I understand that there was reasonable doubt and that the prosecution screwed up.

I also read claims that there were accidental discharges when it seems that some of them were clearly negligent. I'm also reading claims that 4.4 pound trigger pulls are "hair triggers". That is just plain stupid. There are long lists of negligent (some called accidental) discharges associated with Sig Sauer pistols. The articles I read don't limit their claims to a certain model (like the Sig Sauer P239), just the brand as a whole. One article said that a pistol without a safety keeps ready to fire at all times; impossible without a round int he chamber.

I can't argue with your gun expertise and of course the defense is going to put the best face on accidental discharge as they can. That's their job.

But even knowing (and believing) your objections, I think the defense presented reasonable doubt.

The amount of fail in the media reporting of this case is huge. I wasn't at the trial and have not read the testimony, just the sometimes incompetent reporting associated with it.

Do you recognize that a large part of that poor reporting was the news media taking the Trump/bigot fear mongering at face value, never noting that the accused was not the violent monster he was portrayed as, not putting up much in the way of actual investigative reporting on this man?

He was a drug user (not like we don't have plenty of those), he crossed the border illegally multiple times (not the worst crime in the world), and however the shot was fired, it was clearly not as the Trump campaign portrayed and stoked for political gain.

Have you taken a minute to reflect on the fact his immigration status had nothing to do with this at all? Does stoking hate for immigrants for political gain do anything to make this country better?

The gun was there. All this time I thought he had stolen the gun from the vehicle. It sucks the news media didn't make it clear that wasn't true. If he hadn't found the gun, someone else would have. It could have been a responsible person or anyone, a kid, maybe a kid that then accidentally shot his friend or sibling. This has nothing to do with this man's immigration status. It just doesn't.

 

[John Jones]

Stop it. The evidence does not support the conclusions.

 

[PhantomWolf]

So he admitted to intentionally firing the weapon in a crowded urban area? And then someone died as a result? Not really sure what more the jury needed for involuntary manslaughter, but apparently it wasn't enough.

Because that's not what was argued in court.

The prosecutor argued that Zarate stole the gun and brought it to the Pier, then waved it around before aiming towards the crowd and Kate Steinle and firing at her. Thus he was guilty of murder.

The Defence argued that Zarate found the gun under the seat he was on, wrapped up in a T-Shirt, that a group of people that were around where he was sitting but left before he arrived had hidden the gun there. They used CCTV footage as evidence of those things. They also showed that the model of gun was prone to accidental discharges, and argued that when he went to unwrap the gun it discharged accidentally as the model is prone to do. The the trajectory of the bullet was down, and that Kate Steinle was killed by the bullet after it ricocheted off the concrete of the Pier. Thus is was an accidental shooting.

The Jury had to determine if the evidence supported the stories given, and if it did support the defence's story, was it enough to cast reasonable doubt on the charges.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So he admitted to intentionally firing the weapon in a crowded urban area? And then someone died as a result? Not really sure what more the jury needed for involuntary manslaughter, but apparently it wasn't enough.

No, the police came up with that story.

This thread needs merging with the one we are already discussing this on. I shall notify the mods.

 

[rockinkt]

Because that's not what was argued in court.

The prosecutor argued that Zarate stole the gun and brought it to the Pier, then waved it around before aiming towards the crowd and Kate Steinle and firing at her. Thus he was guilty of murder.

The Defence argued that Zarate found the gun under the seat he was on, wrapped up in a T-Shirt, that a group of people that were around where he was sitting but left before he arrived had hidden the gun there. They used CCTV footage as evidence of those things. They also showed that the model of gun was prone to accidental discharges, and argued that when he went to unwrap the gun it discharged accidentally as the model is prone to do. The the trajectory of the bullet was down, and that Kate Steinle was killed by the bullet after it ricocheted off the concrete of the Pier. Thus is was an accidental shooting.

The Jury had to determine if the evidence supported the stories given, and if it did support the defence's story, was it enough to cast reasonable doubt on the charges.

^^^
This

Pretty obvious to me that special interest groups use the media to report their biased and self-serving "news" without any regard to the actual facts.

Doesn't matter whether it is a person of color getting shot by a white police officer or a person of color being accused of a crime - each side tries to grab the narrative and get their interpretation of what went down out to the public first. From that point on - it's a dog eat dog frenzy of getting "witnesses" and "expert opinions" to support their causes.

From Trump on down - people who have concerns about crime and immigration painted the narrative that this guy was a stone cold illegal alien felon who shot somebody just for fun.
People who were for relaxed immigration rules tried to paint this guy as some poor downtrodden refugee from Mexico who was just looking for the promised land.
What a surprise when it turned out that the facts of the case supported neither interest group's version!

 

[Ranb]

But even knowing (and believing) your objections, I think the defense presented reasonable doubt.

I agree.

Do you recognize that a large part of that poor reporting was the news media taking the Trump/bigot fear mongering at face value,....

I ignored anything in an article about this case that had anything to do with Trump or his maniacal rants on the topic. I focused instead on specific claims made by the witnesses for both sides.

If the jury hears from anyone who is accepted as an expert, they are probably going to give more credence to them than a layperson. Sometimes those experts are wrong or bias.

For example when I was serving on a jury I chose to believe the crime lab scientist over the claims of the defendant where it came to claims about the device used to determine alcohol levels.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It's too late anyway.
I'm sorry Kate lived in a place that just didn't care.

Maybe the feds will take action on sanctuary cities now?

Who am I kidding...

Playing with guns and having them go of is often legal though. See

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2956770/Family-s-fury-investigators-decide-man-shot-dead-friend-s-pregnant-wife-playing-revolver-gunslinger-style-not-face-charges.html

So if he was spinning the gun on his finger it would have been a legal shooting in florida without the ricochet. But that should be treated differently because they are white I guess.

 

[ponderingturtle]

There's no such thing as an "accidental" discharge with a modern firearm.

Such as when they go off when dropped. So even though that totally happens it is impossible to happen at the same time.

 

[LTC8K6]

Playing with guns and having them go of is often legal though. See

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2956770/Family-s-fury-investigators-decide-man-shot-dead-friend-s-pregnant-wife-playing-revolver-gunslinger-style-not-face-charges.html

So if he was spinning the gun on his finger it would have been a legal shooting in florida without the ricochet. But that should be treated differently because they are white I guess.

That's contrary to the law, imo. I don't know what the prosecutor was thinking. I'd have no trouble voting him guilty of some form of negligent homicide.

It's didn't end there, either:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/public...ath-hernando-county-man-faces-new-gun/2270540

He is apparently spiraling downward...unfortunately he's not in jail while he does it.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I think it's dishonest to call this an accidental discharge. It was negligence. He held the gun and pulled the trigger or improperly decocked it; not really an accident. Calling it an accident is just an attempt to avoid responsibility for a person's actions.

I know this because I've had a couple of negligent discharges over the years. One was the result of improper operation of the safety on a rifle, another cause by faulty ammo I loaded.

Ranb

ANd as such you should have lost your right to own firearms. Or is that not the case because no one died even though you were reckless enough to have possibly killed someone.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I merely note that if your finger is not on the trigger it is really, really hard to have an accidental discharge - so..........

With lots of firearms going off because of snagging on clothes while holstering such as glock leg, why couldn't a gun wrapped in a shirt discharge with out the person touching anything other than the shirt?

 

[LTC8K6]

With lots of firearms going off because of snagging on clothes while holstering such as glock leg, why couldn't a gun wrapped in a shirt discharge with out the person touching anything other than the shirt?

Glock leg is caused by your finger being on the trigger while holstering your Glock or Glock-type pistol. It's not caused by the trigger snagging on anything as far as I know.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I understand what you're saying. I've served on six juries and have seen both good, bad and non existent prosecution/defense. My "sugar coating" comment was directed as some of the people posting in this thread. An accidental discharge could be a result of conditions beyond the control of the person involved; a negligent discharge is not.

But there is no such thing as an accidental discharge only negligent. Gun facts 101.

 

[ponderingturtle]

A pistol that is discharged while held in the hand does so because the trigger is pulled. It is extremely rare that something else causes the gun to discharge. As far as I know no one in court has suggested that the gun discharged while the defendant was not holding it.

But not because the person pulled the trigger, such as glock leg.

 

[ponderingturtle]

That's contrary to the law, imo. I don't know what the prosecutor was thinking. I'd have no trouble voting him guilty of some form of negligent homicide.

He was thinking that there is no such thing as sober criminal negligence with a firearm. But clearly we need to deport that guy. Or we could just accept that a lot of gun deaths just happen and there was nothing that could be done to prevent them.

 

[LTC8K6]

He was thinking that there is no such thing as sober criminal negligence with a firearm. But clearly we need to deport that guy. Or we could just accept that a lot of gun deaths just happen and there was nothing that could be done to prevent them.

Sober?

"In the video DeHayes admits to ingesting a cocktail of strong narcotics just minutes before the fatal shooting. That cocktail included Methadone, Lortab, and Soma, all of which can effect judgement and motor skills."

 

[LTC8K6]

ANd as such you should have lost your right to own firearms. Or is that not the case because no one died even though you were reckless enough to have possibly killed someone.

Never point a gun at anyone you don't intend to kill.

That way, when you forget the other cardinal rule, the one about checking to see if it's loaded, you won't kill anyone.

There's no such thing as an unloaded gun.

That's the proper rule to follow all the time.

What would actually happen to a legal gun owner in the UK over a round fired while cleaning, that doesn't harm anyone?

 

[LTC8K6]

But not because the person pulled the trigger, such as glock leg.

Glock Leg is from pulling the trigger.

No safety, light trigger pull, no hammer.

Holster your loaded Glock with your finger on the trigger, and there's a high chance you will fire a round into your leg.

Holster your loaded traditional 1911 pistol with your finger on the trigger, and there's pretty much no chance of shooting yourself in the leg. You have a manual safety, a grip safety, and a hammer you can put your thumb on during holstering.