With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

[webfusion]

• I still don't see why peaceful protest is not allowed

It is allowed. Believe it or not, Israel is a democratic society that goes to incredible lengths to allow it. No other neighboring country is quite so lenient in dealing with protestors of any type (see: Egypt, Syria).

It is not allowed inside a closed military zone.
It is not allowed when accompanied by rock-throwing (violence).
It is not allowed when it interferes with ongoing military missions (see: Rachel Corrie).
It is not allowed when it provides 'cover' for shootings, mortars and firebombs.


Israeli armed forces & police are currently deployed in numbers of over 18,000 to PREVENT jewish protestors from violating a military "no-go" zone in Gaza right now.

These protests aren't the focus of our attention in this discussion, anyway: It is off-topic and irrelevent to the cease-fire.

The cease-fire that isn't.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Web, no matter what evidence you put forward - here's 22 pages and it is still ignored - and no matter what you say there are some JREFers who cannot and will not allow Palestinians to be responsible for their actions.

It will always be Israel's fault or the IDF's fault or the settlers fault or european colonialist zionists fault, or the walls fault or Sharon's fault....but never ever will it be debated that it's the Palestinian Authorities fault for harboring and sponsoring the terrorists & terror groups, or Arafat's fault for signing peace agreements and then spending $100,000,000 in interational aid for a shipload of Iranian weapons for Hamas and Islamic Jihad, or Hamas's fault for sending women and children to suicide bomb other women and children...why?...because Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the rest of the terror groups are simply "resisiting the occupation" period, end of story.

And you will never convince some JREFers, who ironically have never stepped foot on Israeli soil, anything different.

 

[a_unique_person]

After hearing "Israel is to blame" for 30 years one must eventually ask oneself if Israel could possible be the cause of everything Palestinian....

I have yet to hear if it is to blame for anything.

 

[a_unique_person]

• I still don't see why peaceful protest is not allowed

It is allowed. Believe it or not, Israel is a democratic society that goes to incredible lengths to allow it. No other neighboring country is quite so lenient in dealing with protestors of any type (see: Egypt, Syria).

It is not allowed inside a closed military zone.
It is not allowed when accompanied by rock-throwing (violence).
It is not allowed when it interferes with ongoing military missions (see: Rachel Corrie).
It is not allowed when it provides 'cover' for shootings, mortars and firebombs.


Israeli armed forces & police are currently deployed in numbers of over 18,000 to PREVENT jewish protestors from violating a military "no-go" zone in Gaza right now.

These protests aren't the focus of our attention in this discussion, anyway: It is off-topic and irrelevent to the cease-fire.

The cease-fire that isn't.

The simple expedient seems to be, if there is something you don't want to happen, just declare a war zone. That is what is being done to the 'settler' supporters.

 

[a_unique_person]

• I still don't see why peaceful protest is not allowed

It is allowed. Believe it or not, Israel is a democratic society that goes to incredible lengths to allow it. No other neighboring country is quite so lenient in dealing with protestors of any type (see: Egypt, Syria).

I am repeatedly told that Israel is not like them, is better than them, and is like any other Western democracy. To say Israel is better than Egypt is to try to have things both ways. Either it is a Western style democracy, or it is comparable to countries that are not western style democracies.

 

[Mycroft]

I am repeatedly told that Israel is not like them, is better than them, and is like any other Western democracy. To say Israel is better than Egypt is to try to have things both ways. Either it is a Western style democracy, or it is comparable to countries that are not western style democracies.

Or, being the best in the region, the least deserving of the worst of your criticism.

 

[webfusion]

much to condemn -- and it is done all the time

I have yet to hear if it is to blame for anything.

You have yet to hear voices on the forum saying Israel is not responsible for its' actions? You haven't seen anyone here on JREF forums making comments that Israel is not perfect but is acting as best she can under the circumstances? You don't think that the posters here recognize there are indeed some inherent problems with the occupation, and that the occupation is not an ideal situation?

You did not hear anyone acknowledge the Nobel Prize award ceremony speech that Yitzhak Rabin made: "We bear the responsibility. We have the power to decide...We are graced with the privilege of fulfilling this duty for our peoples. (for reversing the occupation)" ?

You did not hear Arik Sharon concede (in a 2003 speech at USC) that: "If the Palestinian people take concrete steps to crack down on terror, continue on a path of peace, reform and democracy, they and all the world will see the flag of Palestine raised over a free and independent nation. All sides of this conflict have duties. Israel must take tangible steps now to ease the suffering of Palestinians and to show respect for their dignity. And as progress is made toward peace, Israel must stop settlement activity in the occupied territories." ?

Israel is at war.
The cease-fire is tenuous at best.
The Palestinians have a lot to gain and even more to lose at this point in time, as settlements are about to be evacuated.

This forum is not LGF and it is not an Israel 'cheerleading' fest. All of us, no matter whether if we support Israel or not, need to look at reality in the MidEast and see that there are many things happening which are good for the Palestinians. If, however, the Palestinian people expect to continue supporting and developing institutions leading towards a state that is just a terror-haven, then they will find that path leads straight to hell.

 

[CapelDodger]

Re: much to condemn -- and it is done all the time

You did not hear anyone acknowledge the Nobel Prize award ceremony speech that Yitzhak Rabin made: "We bear the responsibility. We have the power to decide...We are graced with the privilege of fulfilling this duty for our peoples. (for reversing the occupation)" ?

(Not involving myself with this particular exchange, but with reference to the Rabin quote)

I think Rabin was sincere in his acceptance of a two-state solution, and understood that the Palestinian state had to be viable. Rabin wasn't behind the accelaration of settling, he was simply unable to prevent it. His sincerity came across to the Israeli people. He had given up the zionist maximalism of his younger days and recognised practical limitations. He was killed for it, and the Israeli people elected a maximalist - Netenyahu - to replace him.

Rabin's Nobel Prize speech was his death-warrant. The Israeli people shrugged and asked "What did he expect?".

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: much to condemn -- and it is done all the time

You have yet to hear voices on the forum saying Israel is not responsible for its' actions? You haven't seen anyone here on JREF forums making comments that Israel is not perfect but is acting as best she can under the circumstances? You don't think that the posters here recognize there are indeed some inherent problems with the occupation, and that the occupation is not an ideal situation?

I have heard other people, who can't be bothered with threads such as this, saying so, but nothing from Mycroft, ZN or Skeptic. Mycroft has actually said he does think Israel is imperfect, and has made mistakes, only he can't say so because Fool and myself might read these statements.

You did not hear anyone acknowledge the Nobel Prize award ceremony speech that Yitzhak Rabin made: "We bear the responsibility. We have the power to decide...We are graced with the privilege of fulfilling this duty for our peoples. (for reversing the occupation)" ?

I heard that, so did some extremist Israelis. What he was proposing to do was promptly forgotten with his death.

You did not hear Arik Sharon concede (in a 2003 speech at USC) that: "If the Palestinian people take concrete steps to crack down on terror, continue on a path of peace, reform and democracy, they and all the world will see the flag of Palestine raised over a free and independent nation. All sides of this conflict have duties. Israel must take tangible steps now to ease the suffering of Palestinians and to show respect for their dignity. And as progress is made toward peace, Israel must stop settlement activity in the occupied territories." ?

Israel is at war.
The cease-fire is tenuous at best.
The Palestinians have a lot to gain and even more to lose at this point in time, as settlements are about to be evacuated.

I agree. However, the big difference between now and Oslo is that there is a much more radicalised splinter group out there, and it wants to take credit for this evacuation. If Oslo had been honoured more in the spirit and not just as an agreement to be taken advantage of, things for both sides would be much better off. Don't forget, it was Sharon who was happy to set the spark for the second intifada. I wonder if he regrets that action now. My gut feeling is that he does.

This forum is not LGF and it is not an Israel 'cheerleading' fest. All of us, no matter whether if we support Israel or not, need to look at reality in the MidEast and see that there are many things happening which are good for the Palestinians. If, however, the Palestinian people expect to continue supporting and developing institutions leading towards a state that is just a terror-haven, then they will find that path leads straight to hell.

Which is why I hang around here and not, as Mycroft accuses of repeatedly, at Nazi hate sites.

 

[a_unique_person]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/606893.html

Senior officer linked to killing of Palestinian youth gets promoted

Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Dan Halutz on Sunday authorized the promotion of a senior officer who was reprimanded for his role in an incident in which a Palestinian teenager was killed near the town of Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip.

Lieutenant Colonel Adam Zussman, who is currently serving as a battalion commander, will be appointed as a brigade commander in the Southern Command and promoted in rank to colonel.

Two years ago, Zussman authorized a company which had just ended its basic training to hold a "battalion welcome march" in the southern Gaza Strip area.

During their march, the troops crossed an IDF outpost in the settlement of Morag, bordering with the Palestinian towns of Rafah and Khan Yunis, from where fire exchanges were common between the sides.

Zusmann allowed the troops to open "deterring fire" in the direction of nearby Palestinian homes. Palestinians later reported that a 15-year-old boy was killed in the area.

You might believe that Israel does not operate under rule of law when official institutions reward behaviour such as this, mightn't you?

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Re: much to condemn -- and it is done all the time

I agree. However, the big difference between now and Oslo is that there is a much more radicalised splinter group out there, and it wants to take credit for this evacuation. If Oslo had been honoured more in the spirit and not just as an agreement to be taken advantage of, things for both sides would be much better off. Don't forget, it was Sharon who was happy to set the spark for the second intifada. I wonder if he regrets that action now. My gut feeling is that he does.

Sharon didn't spark the second intifada, Arafat did.

 

[Mycroft]

Zusmann allowed the troops to open "deterring fire" in the direction of nearby Palestinian homes. Palestinians later reported that a 15-year-old boy was killed in the area.

By contrast, the other side is required to kill random civilians in order to get promoted.

 

[a_unique_person]

Re: Re: Re: much to condemn -- and it is done all the time

Sharon didn't spark the second intifada, Arafat did.

http://www2.rnw.nl/rnw/en/currentaffairs/region/middleeast/isr041001.html

Sharon used it as part of his election campaign, Arafat was dumb enough to fall for it.

 

[Mycroft]

Re: Re: Re: Re: much to condemn -- and it is done all the time

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Sharon used it as part of his election campaign, Arafat was dumb enough to fall for it.

Your link doesn't support your statement. Sharon campaigning on restoring security and stamping out the intifada is not evidence that he "sparked" the intifada. That would be like saying a politician campaigning on fighting crime is responsible for creating the crime, it makes no sense.

This is the kind of statement you make that has me accusing you of revisionism. Logically, one thing just does not follow from the other, yet you present this nonsense as "proof". Further, we've been over these facts many times, you're aware of all the evidence of how the PA staged the riots, yet you still deny it.

It's easy to document the ways the Palestinian Authority organized the start of the intifada. Everything from inciteful radio messages claiming the Jews were going to tear down the Mosque to rebuild their Temple, to announcing the previous day that there would be no school, to providing wheelbarrows full of rocks within the Al Aqsa compound so these “spontaneous demonstrators” would have something to throw.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/intifada2.html

Further, claiming Sharon is responsible for “sparking” the intifada just by visiting a Jewish holy site (his visit was to the Jewish Temple Mount, he didn't enter any Mosque) while ignoring hundreds of Palestinians pelting Jewish worshipers with rocks is such a breath-taking double-standard it just boggles the mind.

And claiming Arafat was “dumb enough” to “fall for” something he orchestrated is the height of hypocrisy. Arafat didn't fall for anything. If anyone fell for anything, it was Sharon.

Here is a great article describing the incitement that began the intifada:

http://www.cjc.ca/ptemplate.php?action=ioi&item=9

 

[a_unique_person]

Rubbish, the 'battle for Jerusalem' is still being waged, with Palestinians being removed by several means.

Sharon needed an intifada, the resentment over settlements was building, he was happy to provide the spark, and win an election.

BTW, the battle for Jerusalem has been lost by the Palestinians.

 

[zenith-nadir]

"Sharon started the intifada" ...a_u_p

"Sharon needed an intifada" ...a_u_p

"Don't forget, it was Sharon who was happy to set the spark for the second intifada. I wonder if he regrets that action now. My gut feeling is that he does." ...a_u_p

"Rabin's Nobel Prize speech was his death-warrant. The Israeli people shrugged and asked "What did he expect?"....Capel Dodger



Those statements are 100% turnspeak and propoganda which I find amazing is regurgitated on a sceptics message board.

A) Sharon is not responsible for the Palestinian uprising in 2000. Palestinians do not listen to Sharon or follow his wishes. To make such a claim a_u_p is sheer propoganda. The Palestinians started both intifadas. Period. End of woo woo conspiracy theories from nutty Australia.

B) And the Israeli people were horrified when psychopath right-winger Yigal Amir shot Rabin Capel, they DID NOT shrug and ask "What did he expect? That claim is utter revisionism.



Meanwhile back on Earth:

Shin Bet: Palestinian terror hits 18-month high - Tue., August 02, 2005

Twenty-one Israelis were killed and 238 wounded by Palestinian terrorists during the first seven months of 2005, according to figures published by the Shin Bet security service.

During more than six of these months, the Palestinian Authority and the terror organizations had declared a truce.

 

[webfusion]

firing rockets galore

• A six-year old Palestinian boy was killed and nine Palestinians were wounded late Tuesday in the northern Gaza Strip when a volley of Qassem rockets misfired and came back down in Palestinian areas, rescue workers said.
  
  Witnesses said militants launched three rockets at Sderot, but two of the rockets fell short in Palestinian areas and the third landed in an open field near the Israeli town.

and

• Palestinians fired an anti-tank rocket at a convoy traveling to the isolated Gaza Strip settlement of Netzarim on Tuesday night.

I wonder what would be the world's reaction if Israel just opened return fire with 105mm artillery to the sources of these attacks? That is the nature of retaliation by the IDF with Hezbollah in Lebanon, why not into Gaza?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas pledged to do all he can to stop rocket and mortar attacks on January 19, 2005, Feb. 8, 2005, February 10, 2005, March 18th, 2005, June 9th, 2005 and July 17th, 2005. I documented it with links in this thread repeatedly. That is... AFTER the Palestinians declared a ceasefire.

Jihad: No Kassam attacks during pullout - (JP) - Aug. 2, 2005 23:28

Following a series of Kassam rocket attacks Tuesday night, one of which misfired and killed a Palestinian boy, the Islamic Jihad's armed wing said that it has ordered its members to halt attacks on Israeli targets until after Israel's disengagement from the Gaza Strip.

Ceasefire... Palestinian style!

The group also denied responsibility for firing an errant rocket, which killed a three year-old Palestinian boy and wounded nine other Palestinians Tuesday night.

Those rockets we launched to kill israeli civilians in order to "resist the occupation in the name of Palestinian Nationalism"...well those are not the same rockets that killed Palestinian civilians...

Among the wounded were five children, aged four to 11, including four children of Hisham Abdel Razek, a senior official in the ruling Fatah party and a former Palestinian Cabinet minister. Abdel Razek's wife was also wounded.

Maybe Hisham Abdel Razek should ask Abbas to promise to halt all rocket attacks again...that'll fix 'em!

Minutes before the rockets were launched Tuesday night, Palestinian terrorists fired an anti-tank rocket at an Israeli convoy traveling to the Gaza settlement of Netzarim Tuesday. There were no reports of injuries.

Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility for the attack on the convoy.

Just another day of "resistance" in "Palestine".

Legislator's house attacked in Gaza - Aug 03, 2005

GAZA, (UPI) -- A bomb was set off Wednesday in front of the house of a Palestinian legislator, but no one was injured. Witnesses said a car stopped outside the house of Zuheir Sawrani in Gaza and an occupant tossed an explosive at the entrance before fleeing.

Public Prosecutor in Gaza and the West Bank, Hussein Abu Assi, was targeted in a similar attack on his house on Tuesday.

It's ok JREFers! The resistance fighters are just resisiting the Israeli occupation....nothing to see here.

Foreign media slams Palestinian censorship - Aug 03, 2005

JERUSALEM, (UPI) -- The Foreign Press Association Wednesday slammed the Palestinian Authority for trying to impose censorship.

"This a clear attempt to impose censorship and restrict the freedom of the press and the FPA urges its members to ignore this order," the FPA's board said.

"We hope that this is not an indication of further measures to harass or intimidate journalists by the Palestinian Authority and we will monitor the situation closely," the statement added.

Of course the PA want to censor the press otherwise somebody might eventually figure out the Palestinian Authority lies when it says it will stop the terror groups and the terror groups lie when they say they have honored the ceasefire.

 

[webfusion]

We might soon have our answer

...regarding my statement back in August:
I wonder what would be the world's reaction if Israel just opened return fire with 105mm artillery to the sources of these attacks? That is the nature of retaliation by the IDF with Hezbollah in Lebanon, why not into Gaza?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/660380.html

• In the three months since the Israel Defense Forces left Gaza, Qassams have been launched at Israel on an almost daily basis. A total of 239 rockets have been fired at Israel since September 15, according to the Red Dawn warning system, which monitors Qassam launches.

Just a few hours ago:
IDF artillery shelled sites in the Gaza Strip which were used by Palestinians to launch five Qassam rockets at targets in Israel on Tuesday evening.

Israel is threatening to cut off the Gaza Strip's electricity supply if a Qassam rocket hits a vital Israeli infrastructure facility.
There is a working assumption in senior Israeli military circles that "the situation is about to totally deteriorate," Israel Radio reported early on Wednesday (right now, Israel time).