With a cease-fire like this, who needs war?

[a_unique_person]

After four years, during which he created the programs of incitement and programmed hate that are still bearing fruit today.

After intense international pressure to comply with the agreements he made, and he still continued the incitement towards hate.

When he fineally did take action, it wasn't to "try peaceful resistance" as you claim, but merely to round up rival terrorists and detain them, only to let them go later without having brought charges or put anyone on trial.

Goddam, you are nitpicking today. You admit he did finally get the rate of attacks down, but that's still not good enough, because they were rivals who were doing the attacking. At least you conceded that the violence is not all Arafats work.

This is the stuff you want to revise out of your history.

I have never denied it. The revision here is wholly on the part of those using selective quoting of statistics.

 

[Mycroft]

Yes, that's the reality that needs to be dealt with. As is the occupation.

Nobody is denying the occupation.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Goddam, you are nitpicking today. You admit he did finally get the rate of attacks down, but that's still not good enough, because they were rivals who were doing the attacking. At least you conceded that the violence is not all Arafats work.

The issue is how why and when.

How: By locking up rival militants without bringing charges. This allowed him to release them when it suited his purposes to increase the violence again. It was never intended as a long term move to comply with the Oslo agreement.

Why: Not because he wanted peace, but due to international pressure. Funds were being cut off and Arafat's was being seen clearly as the obstacle to peace. At the same time, this massive propaganda campaign designed to incite violence was still going strong.

When: Not for years after his promised obligations. The peace agreement was signed in 1993 and supposed to lead to an independent Palestinian State by 1998, and he doesn’t bend to international pressure until 1998?

Your version, that he "tried peaceful resistance" and failed, is pure revisionism.

 

[zenith-nadir]

The thing is this illustrates the heart of the disagreement. You object to recognizing the obvious, that the truce is not being maintained by one side, not because you don’t think it’s true, but because you think it leads inevitably to conclusions you find unacceptable.

It kinda goes like this Mycroft. Their position cannot include the decades of well-documented events the Arab League and the Palestinians did to "prolong this ongoing tragedy" because then that explains the events that led up to the occupation in 67. Their position cannot include the decades of well-documented international terror attacks by Arafat, the PLO, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Popular Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command, Al Saiqa, the Arab Liberation Front, the Palestine Liberation Front, Black September and Abu Nidal because then that explains the real reason for "Israeli state terrorism"...AKA retaliation. Their position cannot include the decades of well-documented terror attacks inside Israel by Fateh, Force 17, HAMAS, Hizballah, the Palestine Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades because that explains the real reason for;

Continued occupation, continued collective punishment, continued checkpoints, continued setlement expansion.....full steam ahead with the occupation and pacification by force of arms of all the land that God gave to you.

If they place the cart before the horse.- as the fool & a_u_p are wont to do - then Israeli "colonialism" and Israeli "occupation" are the only reasons for everything. It is akin to debating that America invaded and occupied Afghanistan not because of the actions of the Taliban, (the PLO) and Al Queda, (Fateh, Force 17, HAMAS, Hizballah, the Palestine Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades), but that the American invasion and occupation forced the actions of the Taliban and Al Queda....even if those actions predated the American invasion and occupation....and that is how the game is played.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Security forces thwart suicide attacks planned in Jerusalem - 01/06/2005

Security forces thwarted a large attack Islamic Jihad militants planned to carry out in Jerusalem, it was released for publication Wednesday evening.

The five were planning on carrying out a double suicide bombing in the capital on Thursday, near the Ramot neighborhood. The plan was apparently to detonate explosives on a bus and in a cafe or synagogue. Two explosive belts have been found.

Would I have sent my son to his death? - May. 28, 2005

The family of the 15-year-old boy who was arrested last week by IDF soldiers when he tried to carry out an attack at the Hawara checkpoint south of Nablus has condemned those who sent him as "criminals."

Mohammed al-Nadi, a ninth grader from Askar refugee camp near Nablus, was carrying pipe bombs and a lighter when he approached the soldiers at the checkpoint.

This is the fifteenth incident in the past two months in which Palestinian youths under the age of 18 have attempted to detonate explosive devices at checkpoints or smuggle weapons via the crossings.

Dalal thanked God that her son was arrested and is still alive. "I thank God many times that he was arrested and he's not dead," she added. "The one who sent him is not a young boy. I'm sure he's an adult.

 

[The Fool]

It kinda goes like this Mycroft. Their position cannot include the decades of well-documented events the Arab League and the Palestinians did to "prolong this ongoing tragedy" because then that explains the events that led up to the occupation in 67. Their position cannot include the decades of well-documented international terror attacks by Arafat, the PLO, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Popular Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command, Al Saiqa, the Arab Liberation Front, the Palestine Liberation Front, Black September and Abu Nidal because then that explains the real reason for "Israeli state terrorism"...AKA retaliation. Their position cannot include the decades of well-documented terror attacks inside Israel by Fateh, Force 17, HAMAS, Hizballah, the Palestine Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades because that explains the real reason for;If they place the cart before the horse.- as the fool & a_u_p are wont to do - then Israeli "colonialism" and Israeli "occupation" are the only reasons for everything.


Garbage...and you know it. I have never and would never claim that Israeli colonialism and thier militart occupation of the Palestinians are the only reason for everything...this is a tired old lie.

Once again you try to tell me that I am blind to terrorism. I simply don't know how many times I am going to have to repeat my position....actually, I think I shall give up and just accept that you will constantly misrepresent me. It seems to be the only way you can obtain the position you need to argue against.

do you actually read what I write?
here is my last reply to Mycrofts latest claim that I deny these things exist.

"suicide Bombers" are murderers.
Many Palestinians and many surrounding regimes and many of thier people have a racist hatred of Israelis.
The PA has a long history of corruption and incitement to violence.
Arafat has missed many opportunities to improve the lot of palestinians.
Many Palestinians see the Israelis as just the next wave of European colonists come to humiliate and oppress them. This is not an accurate summation of the goals of The large majority of Israelis...

All these things I have said before, all these things you ignore. You need a contrary position to argue against and as I seem unwilling to provide it you simply claim I deny these things. You simply nail your prefered opposing view to whoever you see.

Now maybe you pair could give up the tag team misrepresentation campaign?


As the movement towards peacefull resolution advances you warmongers will simply become further marginalised...Try to keep up.

But somehow I think that you will simply go back to trying to wish away the cease fire as it gets in the way of your vision of a military victory.


[/B]

 

[Mycroft]

This is funny! You say:

Originally posted by The Fool
Now maybe you pair could give up the tag team misrepresentation campaign?

And:

Originally posted by The Fool
As the movement towards peacefull resolution advances you warmongers will simply become further marginalised...Try to keep up.

But somehow I think that you will simply go back to trying to wish away the cease fire as it gets in the way of your vision of a military victory.

So you claim we’re running a misrepresentation campaign, then in the very next breath you claim we’re "warmongers" (for daring to notice that a some people have not ceased firing in this cease-fire) and claim we have "visions of a military victory."

Laughable!

I apologize for not playing the role you’re assigning to us. I know that makes it difficult to make the argument you really want (which is apparently that noticing when someone is launching rockets at children and wanting them to stop is somehow against peace) but I’ll stick to just saying a cease fire where not everyone ceases to fire isn’t really a cease fire.

C’mon, Fool. How long are you going to keep up this farce? It’s kinda funny watching you accuse us of misrepresenting you while you blatantly misrepresent us, but it’s a funny laughing-at-you-not-with-you sort of way.

 

[a_unique_person]

Nobody is denying the occupation.

And that an occupation can have detrimental effects on the civilians population under that occupation?

Your version, that he "tried peaceful resistance" and failed, is pure revisionism.

Funny how you accuse me of 'revisionism' based on an argument that is only half a quote.

Indulge me, by 'revisionism', do you mean like 'subtle' and 'anti-semitism' and "David Irving".

 

[The Fool]

C’mon, Fool. How long are you going to keep up this farce? It’s kinda funny watching you accuse us of misrepresenting you while you blatantly misrepresent us, but it’s a funny laughing-at-you-not-with-you sort of way.

just once say something that is not consistant with being a hopeless apologist for one side in this conflict. Just once and I'll review my opinion........just once.

find a single miniscule fault with any israeli action....just once.

the only time i have ever seen you offer critisism is when you think they have not been militarily tough enough....but oh no, you are not a warmonger.....

 

[a_unique_person]

How about a nice graphic to go with the previous story I printed?

Palestinian children collect body parts of two Palestinian militants of the Al Aqsa Martyrs brigades killed east of Gaza city, Sunday, May 29, 2005. the two militants were killed and three seriously wounded when explosives they were carrying detonated in their car, Palestinians said. (AP Photo/Hatem Moussa)

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050529/481/jrl12605291553


My personal opinion:

I think sending children into trees to collect body parts of exploded terrorists does a lot to contribute to the cultural acceptance of death.

While we're playing ain't it awful http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/583171.html

A father of one of the girls says that when the judge extended the girls' remand, she told one of the girls that by refusing to disclose her name she was violating the halakha in a number of ways. The girl stood up and told the judge "the Torah is based on kiddush hashem (sanctifying the Lord's name by dying as a martyr) and obeying his orders, not the judge's."

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
And that an occupation can have detrimental effects on the civilians population under that occupation?

In itself? Not really. But if you add violence to the mix and the subsequent curfews, checkpoints, all the incitement to hate, the unemployment, the occasional gun battle...yes, it can all add up to a very serious detrimental effect.

Most of the aspects of "the occupation" you point to that are detrimental are actually aspects of the recent Intifada. Prior to that the thinking was that if Palestinians were economically prosperous, they would be more inclined to make peace because they would have more to lose otherwise, so there had been a long period of building up their economy. That all came to an end when Arafat thumbed his nose at peace (and victory, if we believe his goal was a Palestinian state) and called for the Intifada.

The Intafada has been terrible on the Palestinian-Arabs. Violence, battles, death, the breakdown of society, the erosion of social services, poverty, unemployment, checkpoints, curfews...on and on. By contrast, the occupation has been a fact of life for almost 40 years, there have been cycles of peace, economic growth, good relations...then there has been bad times. What needs to be kept in mind is the good times could have culminated with Palestinian independence back in 2000.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
Funny how you accuse me of 'revisionism' based on an argument that is only half a quote.

Indulge me, by 'revisionism', do you mean like 'subtle' and 'anti-semitism' and "David Irving".

I think you really need to poke a stick in your eye to avoid seeing a lot of information in order to maintain the opinions you do. At some point one has to wonder why it’s so important to you to cover your eyes and plug your ears and avoid learning of anything that hints at an Arab contribution to the conflict, yet glom onto anything that suggests Israeli responsibility. My personal theory is you’re a hard-core bigot who can’t help himself. I think you honestly believe everything you say, but something in your brain just acts as a filter and you’re just incapable of absorbing and processing information that might lead you to sympathize with the Israeli/Jewish position. Honestly, if you read Irving, this filter in your head would probably cause you to identify with him and his work.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
the only time i have ever seen you offer critisism is when you think they have not been militarily tough enough....but oh no, you are not a warmonger.....

I want a peace that will work, not a sham based on fantasy and fiction. It's as simple as that.

Firing rockets at civilians is not maintaining a cease fire. That you somehow find something to argue against in that simple self-evident statement is astonishing, and maybe should bring you to do some introspection.

 

[a_unique_person]

In itself? Not really. But if you add violence to the mix and the subsequent curfews, checkpoints, all the incitement to hate, the unemployment, the occasional gun battle...yes, it can all add up to a very serious detrimental effect.

Most of the aspects of "the occupation" you point to that are detrimental are actually aspects of the recent Intifada. Prior to that the thinking was that if Palestinians were economically prosperous, they would be more inclined to make peace because they would have more to lose otherwise, so there had been a long period of building up their economy. That all came to an end when Arafat thumbed his nose at peace (and victory, if we believe his goal was a Palestinian state) and called for the Intifada.

The Intafada has been terrible on the Palestinian-Arabs. Violence, battles, death, the breakdown of society, the erosion of social services, poverty, unemployment, checkpoints, curfews...on and on. By contrast, the occupation has been a fact of life for almost 40 years, there have been cycles of peace, economic growth, good relations...then there has been bad times. What needs to be kept in mind is the good times could have culminated with Palestinian independence back in 2000.



I think you really need to poke a stick in your eye to avoid seeing a lot of information in order to maintain the opinions you do. At some point one has to wonder why it’s so important to you to cover your eyes and plug your ears and avoid learning of anything that hints at an Arab contribution to the conflict, yet glom onto anything that suggests Israeli responsibility. My personal theory is you’re a hard-core bigot who can’t help himself. I think you honestly believe everything you say, but something in your brain just acts as a filter and you’re just incapable of absorbing and processing information that might lead you to sympathize with the Israeli/Jewish position. Honestly, if you read Irving, this filter in your head would probably cause you to identify with him and his work.

A quite obvious difference between me and Irving is I don't doubt the holocaust, for a start, nor the logical imperative for the creation of Israel that arose in the minds of many Jews after that event. As I have said before the irresistable force meets the immovable object. I have also pointed out that many Jews in Israel want the occupation to end, and were prepared to end it many years ago. That is just two example that completely contradict what you believe about me, and they are statements I have made before. I don't belive Jews are evil, and, indeed, if it was not for Jews I would not be here.

 

[a_unique_person]

I want a peace that will work, not a sham based on fantasy and fiction. It's as simple as that.

Firing rockets at civilians is not maintaining a cease fire. That you somehow find something to argue against in that simple self-evident statement is astonishing, and maybe should bring you to do some introspection.

You should know by now, it's not as simple as that. It never will be as simple as that.

 

[Mycroft]

While we're playing ain't it awful http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/583171.html

What's so awful about non-violent resistance?

Incidentally, I showed my picture to illustrate what this conflict has done to the Palestinian-Arabs. What could make it seem normal to send children climbing into trees to collect the flesh of the dead? Five years of needless war. Could this help create an acceptance of death? Yup. Leave it to you to turn it into a racial comparison.

 

[a_unique_person]

While we're playing ain't it awful http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/583171.html

PS. I bet you won't be reading that article on LGF. What was that about the culture of death and suicide being a peculiarly Muslim phenomenon?

 

[Mycroft]

You should know by now, it's not as simple as that. It never will be as simple as that.

More of your double standard. When you're bashing Israel, it's very simple, isn't it? The occupation is bad for the Palestinians, don't you think? Suddenly you can't comprehend the complexities of the role the Palestinian-Arabs played in creating the conflict, how the Intifada led to all the oppressive measures, no, those complexities are just too much, best keep it simple.

 

[a_unique_person]

What's so awful about non-violent resistance?

Incidentally, I showed my picture to illustrate what this conflict has done to the Palestinian-Arabs. What could make it seem normal to send children climbing into trees to collect the flesh of the dead? Five years of needless war. Could this help create an acceptance of death? Yup. Leave it to you to turn it into a racial comparison.

You showed cause you saw it on LGF.

I don't know what part of

The girl stood up and told the judge "the Torah is based on kiddush hashem (sanctifying the Lord's name by dying as a martyr) and obeying his orders, not the judge's."

you don't understand, but it seems pretty clear to me.

As to racism? Please..... the only reason I posted it was because you do this all the time, and you call me racist.

 

[a_unique_person]

More of your double standard. When you're bashing Israel, it's very simple, isn't it? The occupation is bad for the Palestinians, don't you think? Suddenly you can't comprehend the complexities of the role the Palestinian-Arabs played in creating the conflict, how the Intifada led to all the oppressive measures, no, those complexities are just too much, best keep it simple.

I don't think the solution is as simple as that. What is wanted, Peace, is simple and clear, the solution is not here yet after too many years.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
You showed cause you saw it on LGF.

I posted it because it fit with the topic. I did find it on LGF. It's gratifying that I seem to have turned you into a fan.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
I don't know what part of

you don't understand, but it seems pretty clear to me.

Oh, I get what you're trying to say.

The author produces a bizarre translation of kiddush hashem. Literally it would translate to "Blessing the name of God." This would normally be accomplished by living life by God’s commandments, or by performing a singular act of public courage, honesty, risk or integrity. Dying as a martyr can also do it, but you don’t seek this kind of martyrdom, and historically it refers to Jews who died during the Inquisition rather than endure forced conversions, or who were killed in the holocaust.

In the context of this story, kiddush hashem these girls in no way risk their lives, so the dying as a martyr translation is absurd. They are, however, performing a public act that requires courage and risk.

Originally posted by a_unique_person
As to racism? Please..... the only reason I posted it was because you do this all the time, and you call me racist.

So this was a little version of your "parody" of Skeptics thread on the UN forces. Typical.

 

[Mycroft]

A quite obvious difference between me and Irving is I don't doubt the holocaust,...

Whatever. The similarities are that you're both selective about the evidence you look at.