Windows 8: how did so much suck happen?

[Rat]

When you are designing an OS for everyone, you have to understand that NOT everyone finds everything useful that you find useful.

Pot and kettle, I know, but you do realize that that was more than a little condescending?

Power users can put up with less convenient conveyance, but most users are not power users.

I, for one, usually set the Taskbar on Auto-hide. So, yes, (perhaps ironically), I DON'T have a Start button constantly on screen. However, I was the one who CHOSE to auto-hide it: It was NOT a default setting. And, I understand MOST people don't like it that way, so I often take it out of auto-hide mode when other people are using my computers.

Really? I change the UI to German, remove any icons that I can get with a keyboard shortcut (and use odd names and icons for the rest), and set the delete key to delete files permanently without prompting. If people have a problem with that, they should use their own computers.

To be fair, game developers are getting better at accounting for its presence.

I can name a few that crashed from within the past 15 years. But, perhaps not so much in the past 3-5 years.

I have known a few people who plucked that key out of their keyboards, in the past. I forgot about that.
I usually only pluck the Sleep and Power keys from my keyboards.

Whether it crashes the game seems to depend on quite a lot of things. I usually get around it by not ham-fistedly mashing the keyboard when playing games, but if it does get pressed, most games seem to just minimize, and you can Alt-Tab back into them.

 

[Aepervius]

I have known a few people who plucked that key out of their keyboards, in the past. I forgot about that.
I usually only pluck the Sleep and Power keys from my keyboards.

Congratulation you now know another one on this forum. After too many crash I decided to have a windows-key-ctomy.

 

[Wowbagger]

Pot and kettle, I know, but you do realize that that was more than a little condescending?

Sorry, but it sounded arrogant, to me, to assume your preferences are what everyone should use.

I change the UI to German, remove any icons that I can get with a keyboard shortcut (and use odd names and icons for the rest), and set the delete key to delete files permanently without prompting. If people have a problem with that, they should use their own computers.

Whatever floats your boat, dude!

most games seem to just minimize, and you can Alt-Tab back into them.

That is true, today. Like I said: Most developers have properly accounted for its presence. But, it wasn't always like that: A lot of games, in the past, would not properly function upon alt-Tabbing back to them.

Though, sometimes, graphics card hardware was a factor, as well, I think.

Some games disable that button, while you are playing. Though, I understand that's considered a cop-out in the industry.

 

[Rat]

Some games disable that button, while you are playing. Though, I understand that's considered a cop-out in the industry.

That's what I used to do when it was a problem playing Quake in Windows 95. I had a little utility that when activated would disable the Windows key, so you could just disable it when playing.

 

[davefoc]

Really? I've never cared for WMP. I generally use winamp, itunes, media player classic or VLC.

I use Windows Media Player as part of a DVR system. I have a Homerun tuner that puts three cable TV stations on my network. There is a card installed in the Homerun device that decrypts the stations that the cable TV company encrypts (almost all of them). As I understand it about 6 million people have a system like mine and about six million people use Tivo. These numbers are trivially small for Microsoft and I suspected that the failure of Microsoft to move Windows Media Player into more general acceptance was the reason that they were discontinuing it.

I am under the impression that the programs you mentioned wouldn't function as part of a DVR system. Am I wrong?

I'm speculating but that could be in reaction to the EU competition case. They may have decided it's easier just not put media player on their by default and that most people probably aren't going to choose to install it themselves.

I knew of the case before I read your link, but the details were pretty amazing. I especially liked the part at the end about how a technical glitch caused Microsoft to fail to deliver the browser selection menu they had agreed to and claimed to be supporting for 14 months.

Still, I think that there are three possibilities that are more likely explanations for Microsoft dropping support for Windows Media Player in the US.
1. Paradigm change. People are moving from cable to the internet for their video programming.
2. Failure by Microsoft to gain many users (by their standards) for WMP.
3. Microsoft has a long term plan to promote the Xbox as a DVR host and WMP provides competition for a Microsoft platform that they control completely.

Personally I think they should have gone with a bare bones media player, like MPC is, just so it can play most media out of the box but without being as big and troublesome as WMP can be.

I think there are some parallels between the discussion here about the Windows 8 UI and the WMP interface. When I first started to use the WMP interface I was annoyed. Why had Microsoft changed the normal way of doing things? But then as I used it I realized that Microsoft had invented a UI optimized for people sitting on the couch operating it from a remote control and then I realized that Microsoft had developed something that was really a good idea.

The difference between that situation and the Windows 8 situation is that with Windows 8 Microsoft developed a UI that they knew offered no benefit to a massive number of users because they thought that it would help them boost mobile device sales and perhaps because they thought it would help them move to system whereby they controlled all software distribution for desktops. In short, Microsoft chose to screw its user base for what it perceived was its commercial interest. I think a lot of people didn't like that.

As to the issue of Microsoft bundling a simpler Media Player:
I thought the strategy by Microsoft to attempt to become a major player, perhaps the dominant player in the set top box/DVR business was a good idea. I don't know whether it was or not with hindsight. To me it looks like their execution was poor and that was the problem. But the problem might have been that there were just too many difficulties to make the system work simply and reliably enough for the masses. I have ideas about how Microsoft might have attacked these issues but I don't have the benefit of sitting in Microsoft meetings where ideas like mine would certainly have been discussed and apparently rejected.

 

[jbm]

It's not so much the crashing out of the game when the Windows key is pressed accidentally, it's the dying inside the game because you suddenly cannot see anymore what's happening I used to pry the Windows key out of my keyboards so that I could not accidentally press it anymore, newer gamer keyboards have a dedicated "Windows key off" switch. Which tells you a lot about how much gamers complained when keyboard companies decide to put in a new button specifically to DISABLE a key Microsoft forced them to put onto they keyboards just to get the "designed for Windows" label.

Though, to be honest, for the last two years or so I use a separate small programmable keyboard for games (where I can program exactly which key does what), so I use the main keyboard only for chatting and the "Windows key problem" went away because of that.

Back on topic though, i.e. about Windows 8:

I can live with it - I do not really like it, because I dislike the general UI look (the desktop looks looks like "my first GUI" with its flat, no transparency look) and because many of the changes make, in my opinion, no sense for a desktop computer - what use is a touch UI if you're sitting in front of a triple screen 27" setup and cannot even reach the screen from where you sit? Also, some changes make things more annoying for me at work (I work in the server department at a larger company). Server 2012R2 (the 8.1 equivalent) made some things finally easier, so I can live with that version, but before that (the 8.0 equivalent), using the management tools simply took many more mouse clicks than in server 2008 r2, because all the NEW versions of the tools have the same Windows 8 "less information using more screen estate" design, and you had to dig around to find the old, more informative and easier to use versions which are still there, too. Also, the new tools are kind of annoying to use when you remote console to a server with a 1024x768 screen, but the GUI obviously is designed for a higher screen resolution and you have to scroll around all the time. Well, the good thing is that it finally made me accept powershell for administration.

Back to the home desktop: I am still using Windows 7 here. I got upgrade licenses for my Windows 7 machines when MS had the promotion, so I can upgrade to Windows 8 and then Windows 8.1 whenever I feel like it, but I will still wait. Maybe 8.2 will be even less annoying and have one or two nice features that I can justify spending time on upgrading, but for now I do not see any reason to do it.

 

[Meed]

The windows key ? The one most user find very annoying and mostly never use, the one you have to grab in the windows doc to find its usage rather than have a convenient summary, and many gamer remove from the keyboard because most game application did not like to out-tab and crashed when the windows key was hit ? That widnows key ?

I find it quite useful as a shortcut. I just hit the windows key, type in the first few letters of the program I want to run and then hit enter. Of course, this works with both the old and new start menus.

Whether it crashes the game seems to depend on quite a lot of things. I usually get around it by not ham-fistedly mashing the keyboard when playing games, but if it does get pressed, most games seem to just minimize, and you can Alt-Tab back into them.

Man I hate playing games in full screen mode. It's windowed mode or bust for me.

I use Windows Media Player as part of a DVR system. I have a Homerun tuner that puts three cable TV stations on my network. There is a card installed in the Homerun device that decrypts the stations that the cable TV company encrypts (almost all of them). As I understand it about 6 million people have a system like mine and about six million people use Tivo. These numbers are trivially small for Microsoft and I suspected that the failure of Microsoft to move Windows Media Player into more general acceptance was the reason that they were discontinuing it.

I am under the impression that the programs you mentioned wouldn't function as part of a DVR system. Am I wrong?

I've no idea, but if that is the case then I understand why WMP is important to you.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

You can use VLC with DVR, although I've never done so myself and have no idea how well it works, or how easy it is.

 

[elbe]

I use Windows Media Player as part of a DVR system. I have a Homerun tuner that puts three cable TV stations on my network. There is a card installed in the Homerun device that decrypts the stations that the cable TV company encrypts (almost all of them). As I understand it about 6 million people have a system like mine and about six million people use Tivo. These numbers are trivially small for Microsoft and I suspected that the failure of Microsoft to move Windows Media Player into more general acceptance was the reason that they were discontinuing it.

I am under the impression that the programs you mentioned wouldn't function as part of a DVR system. Am I wrong?

I believe there are various programs that can act as a DVR with a cable card (that's what I assume you're using), but apparently Media Center may be the only one that work with encrypted stations. I use XBMC but my setup is different than yours.

Are they really stopping development of WMP or WMC? I can't seem to find an article on it. Wiki says they're just stopping developing new versions of WMP for previous versions of Windows.

 

[davefoc]

I believe there are various programs that can act as a DVR with a cable card (that's what I assume you're using), but apparently Media Center may be the only one that work with encrypted stations. I use XBMC but my setup is different than yours.

Wow, XMBC looks really good. I think the purpose of the cable card is to let you use encrypted programs as I understand it. I could receive the unencrypted channels without it. The cable company encrypts almost every channel except the shopping channels and the local TV channels I think.

I'm a bit on the busy side right now and I don't want a new project, but in about three weeks I think I'm going to give installing XBMC a shot. I think I'll PM you when I get closer to trying it to see if you have any suggestions. I'll need to make sure it's compatible with my Homerun tuner.

Are they really stopping development of WMP or WMC? I can't seem to find an article on it. Wiki says they're just stopping developing new versions of WMP for previous versions of Windows.

I don't know. They stopped distributing it with Windows 8, but you can get it either for free or for a small charge from Microsoft. I thought I'd read they were done with it, but I'm not sure. From my perspective the obvious thing to do with it is to cram it into Xbox One. If people get hooked on that solution Microsoft might be able to charge fees for hooking up stuff like RAID boxes to Xbox one and they might be able to impose monthly fees like Tivo.

I thought Microsoft had a nice technology wall with WMP that would make it difficult for others to enter the market. If XBMC is as good as their site suggests maybe Microsoft doesn't have as much technological wall protecting their control of set top box/DVR software as I imagined.

 

[elbe]

Wow, XMBC looks really good. I think the purpose of the cable card is to let you use encrypted programs as I understand it. I could receive the unencrypted channels without it. The cable company encrypts almost every channel except the shopping channels and the local TV channels I think.

I'm a bit on the busy side right now and I don't want a new project, but in about three weeks I think I'm going to give installing XBMC a shot. I think I'll PM you when I get closer to trying it to see if you have any suggestions. I'll need to make sure it's compatible with my Homerun tuner.


I don't know. They stopped distributing it with Windows 8, but you can get it either for free or for a small charge from Microsoft. I thought I'd read they were done with it, but I'm not sure. From my perspective the obvious thing to do with it is to cram it into Xbox One. If people get hooked on that solution Microsoft might be able to charge fees for hooking up stuff like RAID boxes to Xbox one and they might be able to impose monthly fees like Tivo.

I thought Microsoft had a nice technology wall with WMP that would make it difficult for others to enter the market. If XBMC is as good as their site suggests maybe Microsoft doesn't have as much technological wall protecting their control of set top box/DVR software as I imagined.

I don't know much about the whole CableCard thing, but it sounds like the encryption rules have a couple choices. From one of my links: "What you want to pay attention to are the CCI flags (Copy Freely, Copy Once) If Time Warner marks all channels as Copy Once your only option is to use Media Center. I am on comcast and they only mark the Premium (HBO, SHOWTIME etc) as copy once. " So WMC may be your best bet if that's the case with your TV, though the Wiki list may suggest that a Mac software called EyeTV may also work (looking at the DRM column).

If nothing else it could never hurt to try some of the free software and see if any of those work.

 

[Dancing David]

What they fail to understand is that it's for their own good.

Seriously, we impose what the company tell us to impose. That is, the company want X; the only real way to achieve X is to (for example) upgrade the Exchange server; upgrading the Exchange server necessitates upgrading clients, which realistically means the whole Office suite. The end user doesn't know (or care) about X or Exchange servers or anything; the end user just sees that the toolbar has changed in Excel and doesn't like it.

Ta da
and as Help Desk, I try to smooth the transition and calm the anxiety, and give them a phone error to complain to...

Now we are trying not to yank users rights to install, but our network labors under malware, such is the nature of IT

 

[davefoc]

I've gone into the belly of the beast. I've been working on getting my parents' new ASUS windows 8 mini laptop up and running so they can run their library catalog software on it.

With some difficulty, I managed to get the default search engine for Internet explorer changed to Google. With some more difficulty I managed to get rid of McAffee sort of. Midway through the process I got some kind of popup screen giving me a choice of activating McAffee now or later. I didn't want either one, but the damn screen was in the way of completing the process of removing McAfee. I think I finally got rid of it with alt-F4 which has become my new favorite key sequence. When the process was all over I noticed that there were still lots of McAfee folders around. Maybe they'll be gone when the machine is rebooted.

I went to bed last night with a hope that the update would be done when I got up. I looked for a way to tell it to update right away, but I only found the update control options and they told me the update was scheduled. When I got up, no update. More screwing around and I figured out how to force the update. Four hours later the machine had loaded and installed 560 megabytes of windows 8 updates. Not, however without a little fun.

The progress meter that tells you how much of the update upload is complete never moved off of zero. I looked around trying to see if files were actually getting uploaded. I found hundreds of updates dating back to 2012, but no 2014 updates. Were files really being uploaded? I decided to wait and my annoyed patience was rewarded. The updates had successfully uploaded and updating was underway.

Great and wonderful. On to Windows 8.1 installation. Eventually, I learned that the windows 8.1 was available in the store. I had tried to load windows 8.1 last night and it wasn't available in the store. The bright folks at Microsoft apparently don't put the tile for the update up if Windows 8 hasn't been updated. In classic Microsoft style, they don't tell you what's wrong, what you're trying to do just doesn't work.

But after the Windows 8 update was done, happy days. I get a tile for windows 8.1 update in the store. Foolishly, I imagine that I'll be able to install Windows 8.1 by pushing on the tile. Hah, what would be the fun in that. Pushing on the tile causes it to look like it's been pushed and then nothing happens. OK, I poke around the internet and find out that there is a program that will guide you through Windows 8.1 update. Now we're cooking. I run the program. It tells me, after quite awhile of course, that my machine is ready for windows 8.1 and I need to go to the store to upload it. Uh, oh, I'm a tad worried at this point, but I suck in and push the link to the store. A full screen version of the store pops up with one of those little rotating circles of stars telling you something is happening. But what? Twenty minutes later, I decided to try to find out. I go into task manager and find out that there is hardly any disk activity and no network activity. Hmm, I think downloading and updating usually involves some of that stuff. So what now? I poke around the internet and find out that people are having trouble with the store locking up in general, but one guy mentions that rebooting seems to fix that. I had assumed the machine had rebooted after the windows 8 update. Maybe it hadn't.

Well it hadn't. When the machine comes up I get the messages about updates being installed.

OK let's try the store again. Now clicking on the 8.1 tile brings up the 8.1 install screen and that's where I am now. 8.1 is uploading. I just glanced over at the machine. The progress bar suggests that the process is about 2/3 complete. It says checking compatibility right now. I'd like to think we're going to make it through that. We might have. The message says "Applying changes" right now.

 

[Rat]

I've gone into the belly of the beast. I've been working on getting my parents' new ASUS windows 8 mini laptop up and running so they can run their library catalog software on it.[...]

I suspect that a lot of the problems here are not with W8 but with crap that Asus have put on. I loaded up three W8 machines last week. All different brands. Every one involved just running Windows Update twice, then installing 8.1. No problems at any stage.

 

[davefoc]

I suspect that a lot of the problems here are not with W8 but with crap that Asus have put on. I loaded up three W8 machines last week. All different brands. Every one involved just running Windows Update twice, then installing 8.1. No problems at any stage.

With respect, I don't think that's the problem. First, I was unfamiliar with Windows 8, so everything is painful. Then there is a hardware hiccup with the ASUS tablet. Activating a left click requires the left mouse switch to be pressed on the left half of the switch. You are probably familiar with this kind of switch, but it works like sort of a rocker switch. If it's pressed near the center it provides tactile feedback like it's been pressed but I think what is happening is that both a left and right click code are output. I didn't figure this out until this morning when a house guest who was listening to my whining suggested the possibility.

Secondly, there is a vast difference between having done it once and knowing what stuff is supposed to look like and doing it the first time and wondering if what is happening is correct. And of course, there is the routine lack of feedback from Microsoft when something doesn't work. All you learn is that it doesn't work. And finally almost every thing is very slow, many things that seem like there is no need for them to take a lot of time, take a lot of time.

As to the ASUS stuff I haven't experienced much of that. There was the McAfee nonsense and some sort of an opportunity to upload an ASUS ap so I could buy aps from them.

I just looked over at the machine the 8.1 installation that started over an hour ago is still going on.

 

[davefoc]

Please feel free to ignore what you feel like in this post. Maybe I'll bold the whining and ranting to separate it from the questions. And I bolded what is the most important question to me.

I got home and the Windows 8.1 install had completed. So now I'm in the setup screen.

Reccommendations?

Windows automatic update: On or Off. They have done away with the option that I use to automatically upload them but wait for me to install them.

I left the automatic update drivers on and I turned off the app automatic update.

Use SmartScreen online services: Maybe this is good? I turned it off.

Use SmartScreen to protect against Malicious content:
I turned it off.

Send a do not track request to sites you visit:
I left it on. I wasn't sure about this. I don't see a big problem with sites tracking me, but the default was off so I left it off

Use windows error tracking to check fo on-line solutions: I don't think this has ever helped me but I left it on.

Send some location aware data to microsoft apps: I left it on. As Microsoft moves deeper into the dark side this might be a bad idea for my older parents, but let's see how it goes

Send MS information about how the computer is used: I left it on.

Send MS info about how I use help: I left it on.

Use Bing to get search suggestions: Turned it off.

Turned off support for Windows defender. I used to like it but the constant hard disk grinding is annoying and pointless. I recently had some malware attacks and Windows defender didn't help with any of them.

I'm at the step where they're trying to get me to sign up for a microsoft account. There is no obvious way to bypass this right now. I've pressed the don't have an account line numerous times. I tried going back with the arrow at the top. Is this a back button? Who knows? but maybe somewhere I told them I wanted a Microsoft account? OK the thing that looks sort of like a back button is a back button, but there is no obvious way to leave here without going back to where I am. I go all the way back to the beginning and I never told them I wanted to use a Microsoft account. At some point in the install process I told them I didn't want on. OK, that was really annoying. It looks like you can't get past this screen without a Microsoft account. But you can. Enter an email with a bogus password and they finally put up a screen that asks if you want to log on without a Microsoft account. ********. But your fun is not over. More clicking is required to convince them that you really want to log on without a microsoft account. I'm in with Windows 8.1 installed. What an exercise in stupid user interfaces or an exercise in Microsoft attempting to mine their user base at the expense of useability. Have I mentioned that I am way in the Microsoft sucks camp? Question I am most interested in some comments on: Now I have two possible paths forward. Load the library catalog software immediately and create a tile for it. I'm not sure how to do that but I think I could figure it out if it's possible. It might even happen automatically. Presumably, when you click on it would bring up the application immediately in the "legacy" screen mode. Or modify the user interface so that it looks like Windows 7 as much as possible so that my parents will know how to use the computer. Besides the catalog application they would probably like access to Google docs. (I don't expect them to learn how to use that, but I'm going to take the book data they generate and put it into Google Docs), a web brower and access to a word processor.
ETA: I should have mentioned another couple of reasons why that Rat thinks that Windows 8 isn't all that bad. He is vastly more knowledgeable about modern computer issues than I am. He is just smarter than me.

 

[babycondor]

Or modify the user interface so that it looks like Windows 7 as much as possible so that my parents will know how to use the computer. Besides the catalog application they would probably like access to Google docs. (I don't expect them to learn how to use that, but I'm going to take the book data they generate and put it into Google Docs), a web brower and access to a word processor.

Having recently upgraded to 8.1 on my own laptop and done the same for my 80+ year old dad, I understand your consternation. I would recommend "pin to taskbar" for their most important programs (consider including icons for control panel and file explorer there too). Then show them how to toggle from the tile screen to the desktop and they should be fine. They never have to touch the tiles unless they want to. This doesn't require much modification on your part and is probably the simplest workaround.

I recommend Firefox for the browser because you can put Adblock on it, and LibreOffice for the word processor.

 

[quadraginta]

I had no problems at all upgrading my laptop from 8.0 to 8.1.

Simple, clear, straightforward and relatively quick. As upgrades go I would have to rate it 'painless'.

Same with Mrs. qg's machine.

 

[jbm]

Having recently upgraded to 8.1 on my own laptop and done the same for my 80+ year old dad, I understand your consternation. I would recommend "pin to taskbar" for their most important programs (consider including icons for control panel and file explorer there too). Then show them how to toggle from the tile screen to the desktop and they should be fine. They never have to touch the tiles unless they want to. This doesn't require much modification on your part and is probably the simplest workaround.

In 8.1, you can do the "toggle from the tile screen to the desktop part" automatically. Right-click the taskbar (on the desktop), click properties, then select the "navigation" tab. There, check the option "when I sign in or close all apps on a screen, go to the desktop instead of Start".

 

[babycondor]

In 8.1, you can do the "toggle from the tile screen to the desktop part" automatically. Right-click the taskbar (on the desktop), click properties, then select the "navigation" tab. There, check the option "when I sign in or close all apps on a screen, go to the desktop instead of Start".

Good to know, thanks! There are at least two other ways to toggle back and forth*, but I didn't know about this automatic setting.

*1. Windows key on keyboard
2. Lower left screen corner, click on Windows logo