Windows 8: how did so much suck happen?

[mummymonkey]

I've been struggling with a Dell tablet for a couple of weeks now. I'm not sure if the suckiness is the hardware or the OS. Probably both. There's no chance this is going anywhere near my desktop machine. It does load a bit quicker though that could be the SSD.

 

[davefoc]

Well, I just received an email from MS reminding me that XP support ends soon. Following their links I read that "Windows 8.1 makes it easy to do all the things you're used to doing with Windows XP while opening up a whole new world of possibilities for you to explore and enjoy."

So, what's all the fuss about?

I forgot to mention this in my semi rant above. One of the things that my father's wife mentioned to me was that a lot of her friends had talked to her that they were very worried about Microsoft dropping support for XP. Apparently they had bought computers many years ago, learned to use them well enough to accomplish what they wanted (probably web browsing, text editing and email mostly I suspect) and were afraid that the fact that Microsoft wasn't going to support XP any longer meant they needed to buy a computer with Windows 8 on it which they were very wary of. (Or perhaps something like this, the story got to me second hand.)

My sense of all this is that Microsoft is attempting to impose changes for which millions of the people who these changes are imposed on will only see pain without a scintilla of benefit for them. I think Microsoft understood this and the fact is they didn't give a crap. They might care now a bit that their grand strategy has not produced any great upsurge of movement into the mobile markets for them and they have pissed off every one of their business partners who are now doing things like testing the market with android desktops. I routinely use Windows Media player. It's actually a very nice program, but Microsoft is dropping development of that. Perhaps this is driven by the paradigm changes in the market where watching internet programming is beginning to surpass watching cable programming. The other possibility is that Windows Media Player was a spectacular opportunity for Microsoft which they bobbled into the crapper. Yes it works pretty well and does a lot of nice things. But it is buggy, difficult to set up and information in error messages is something that Microsoft just doesn't believe in, which makes getting it to work reliably a major pain. I would have recommended this software to everybody in my family and I have no doubt every one of them would have bought a PC just for the purpose of running Windows Media player like I did, except I couldn't, it is a daunting task to get it up and running and then little kerfuffles along the way that might not trouble a fairly technically oriented person completely preclude its use for people without their own IT departments. Microsoft had to understand this. How could they have produced the product for so many years without anybody addressing these problems? The fact seems to be that Microsoft as an organization is struggling with the sense that their near monopolistic control of some markets allows them to get away with BS that companies that have competition would never consider. Clearly Microsoft's sense that their monopoly positions are invincible is wrong. The value of Microsoft's monopolies erodes every year. Microsoft at some point may have to actually do something good for their customers if they are to continue successfully. It remains to be seen whether Microsoft has come to grips with this reality.

 

[Wowbagger]

In your opinion.

No, it is NOT mere opinion. There is a science to developing effective user interfaces, that Microsoft brushed aside.

Conveyance is one of those factors: A good OS UI would convey, to the user, how to do certain common or important tasks. Windows 8 fails to deliver as much conveyance as most of its predecessors (Win95 and up), on objective grounds.

I thought your defense of that opinion was pretty weak.

Yeah, soooo weak that Microsoft now recognizes that it needs to backtrack on what they did, to be more in line with what I was saying.

Whiny and nitpicky might be a better description.

Small, nitpicky, things can make a HUGE difference in the usability of a UI.

The nature of UI design is one of practical psychology, in which many of its factors can be very subtle.

Could you imagine if MiCrOsOfT dEcIdEd To UsE aLtErNaTiNg CaSe in its user interface? It would drive people nuts, but any criticism of it could be met with "you're just being nitpicky!" Yet, there were a few games that almost did that, at least.

Could you imagine if the text in the title bars were only a few shades different from the background color? It would be really hard to read, but any criticism could be met with "Oh, get over it! It's just their choice of colors!"

Like I said in several threads, it was not dissimilar to the criticisms of XP I read when it was first released.

It's not my fault other people don't know what they're talking about. I, for one, was NOT one of the folks who criticized XP's UI. I thought it was all right.

I heard more criticism about The Ribbon in Microsoft Office, but you never heard me complaining about that, either, because it was a genuine improvement, on objective grounds. (Though, it would have been nice to have the option of a legacy menu bar, in the 2007 edition.)

I complain about Win8 because it is NOT an improvement. A LOT of FORCED change, for no benefit; and quite a few detrimental effects for those on KVM hardware.

Start Button? Who needs it?

As a matter of conveyance, it is needed. For those who can't swipe the edges of their screen, it's needed. For older users it would be nice to have. For IT personnel, it's a one-stop-shop for all the advanced features and applications and settings they need. Etc.

Just because you don't need it, doesn't mean other people don't.

People who found the transition overwhelmingly confusing weren't trying very hard. All the needed information was easily available.

Why should there be any effort needed at all? Why would they have to find needed information? Why can't the OS just work the way its users expect, right out of the box?

 

[John Jones]

In your opinion.

In a lot of people's opinion.

I thought your defense of that opinion was pretty weak.

Whiny and nitpicky might be a better description. Like I said in several threads, it was not dissimilar to the criticisms of XP I read when it was first released.

Much crying and gnashing of teeth. Very little substance.

At this stage I wouldn't even want to go back to an earlier version. Win8 is superior in every way that is significant to me, and the differences which seem to form the core of negative reviews are so trifling as to be meaningless. In general what they have been replaced with is superior in every respect.

Start Button? Who needs it?

People who found the transition overwhelmingly confusing weren't trying very hard. All the needed information was easily available.

The more I use it the more I believe that it has unquestionably been a change for the better.

Keep up the good work, MS.

Yes indeed, MS will continue to alienate their consumer base. The quadragintas of this world will take-up their slack.

 

[Meed]

I have no doubt every one of them would have bought a PC just for the purpose of running Windows Media player

Really? I've never cared for WMP. I generally use winamp, itunes, media player classic or VLC.

As a matter of conveyance, it is needed. For those who can't swipe the edges of their screen, it's needed. For older users it would be nice to have. For IT personnel, it's a one-stop-shop for all the advanced features and applications and settings they need. Etc.Why can't the OS just work the way its users expect, right out of the box?

Why does one need it just because they can't swipe the edges of their screen?

 

[Wowbagger]

Why does one need it just because they can't swipe the edges of their screen?

When Win8 was first released, there was no Start Button on screen, on the taskbar. (They added one in Win8.1.) And, at that time, you had to do one of two things, to see the Start Screen: Move the mouse to the far bottom-left corner to see a Start Screen indicator pop up; or 'swipe' the mouse on the right side of the screen for the so-called Charms bar to pop up.

If you either: 1. Didn't know you could do that
2. Couldn't do that because of the configuration of your monitor, or
3. Couldn't do that because you had physical difficulties moving the mouse around the screen so much

... then some folks were lost without the visible button.

 

[Checkmite]

I've used a friend's computer, which has Windows 8.1, a few times.

Honestly, once I accepted the fact that all tasks I can do on my XP machine could still be done but merely required different steps or actions to carry them out, I just got to learning the different steps and that was the end of it.

Windows 8 is a UI change brought about by the fact that touch-screens and mobile devices are as popular as desktop computers and Microsoft wanted to make a single OS that could function on either. It does a perfectly fine job. I really don't get what the fuss is about.

When I rebuild my system later this year, I'll probably be installing Windows 8.1.

 

[Rat]

When Win8 was first released, there was no Start Button on screen, on the taskbar. (They added one in Win8.1.) And, at that time, you had to do one of two things, to see the Start Screen: Move the mouse to the far bottom-left corner to see a Start Screen indicator pop up; or 'swipe' the mouse on the right side of the screen for the so-called Charms bar to pop up.

If you either: 1. Didn't know you could do that
2. Couldn't do that because of the configuration of your monitor, or
3. Couldn't do that because you had physical difficulties moving the mouse around the screen so much

... then some folks were lost without the visible button.

Or press the Windows key on the keyboard. That always worked for the start menu; still does (mutatis mutandis).

 

[Wowbagger]

Or press the Windows key on the keyboard. That always worked for the start menu; still does (mutatis mutandis).

Then you would be using two different input devices for a task that used to take only one. Where's the sense in that?

There is a velocity of input device usage some people achieve, at certain points of their computer use, when they are focused more on using the mouse, so that reaching over for the keyboard is a little inconvenient. You might scoff at the tiny level of inconvenience, but when it comes to UI design: The little things like that make a BIG difference in the day-to-day usability of the system.

Also, this assumes you have a keyboard, at all. What if you are ONLY using a mouse, gamepad, or TV remote?

What if you have a keyboard, but it doesn't have Windows keys. This still happens, sometimes.

And, not everyone notices the Windows key, even if there is one. Don't laugh: If not everyone can "spot the gorilla", so-to-speak, how would you expect everyone to spot the key?

Does this sound too trivial? Well, it's not like adding a simple, stupid button is even that hard, anyway. There are no challenging engineering problems to resolve, here. They already had a button and a compact Start Menu. Putting them back into the OS would also be trivial.

 

[Wowbagger]

Imagine if someone took the Back button off your favorite browser. Oh, you can still go backwards with the hit of the Backspace key.

And, perhaps, you can still navigate backwards by moving the mouse all the way to one of the corners of the screen, where a Back icon will pop up. Though, if no one told you about that, you might not figure it out right away.

Those on touch devices can swipe their fingers across the screen to go back, as well. Though, that won't be possible on most PCs, and sometimes those gestures can be problematic in other ways.

And, to be fair, this hypothetical browser would also feature an animation showing you where to access the button, as you install it.

But, given all that, would anyone here seriously think it would be a great idea to remove the Back button from being visible on the browser?

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Imagine if someone took the Back button off your favorite browser. Oh, you can still go backwards with the hit of the Backspace key.

And, perhaps, you can still navigate backwards by moving the mouse all the way to one of the corners of the screen, where a Back icon will pop up. Though, if no one told you about that, you might not figure it out right away.

Those on touch devices can swipe their fingers across the screen to go back, as well. Though, that won't be possible on most PCs, and sometimes those gestures can be problematic in other ways.

And, to be fair, this hypothetical browser would also feature an animation showing you where to access the button, as you install it.

But, given all that, would anyone here seriously think it would be a great idea to remove the Back button from being visible on the browser?

Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. I fear you may be giving Bill's Fine Company ideas. Bad ideas.

 

[Wowbagger]

Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. I fear you may be giving Bill's Fine Company ideas. Bad ideas.

It's too late. Have you seen the Metro version of IE?


(ETA: I meant "Modern UI", not "Metro", but whatever.)

 

[megaresp]

But that's my job. And as ever, the whole company would run so much better if it weren't for all the bloody users.

Heh, I have a degree of sympathy for you given the need to support many systems, users, and their inconvenient preferences.

Despite this, the machine I use on site at my current contract is designated a 'developer' system and allows me to install whatever I want.

Last year I was working on a custom report-builder, and one of its outputs was a CSV file. While testing said file I had my first encounter with the dreaded 'ribbon'. I found myself installing Libre Office rather than learning to use the latest version of Excel. I didn't even think about it at the time. It was simply 'this is taking too long, I'll just install Libre Office'.

I don't envy those who are forced to fall in line with the company's IT choices, though I understand and support such policies. Do as I say, not as I do and all that

 

[megaresp]

Well, I just received an email from MS reminding me that XP support ends soon. Following their links I read that "Windows 8.1 makes it easy to do all the things you're used to doing with Windows XP while opening up a whole new world of possibilities for you to explore and enjoy."

So, what's all the fuss about?

There's no fuss at all. All those people who hate Win8 also hate kittens and puppies. That's 100% fully established Science, my friend. And if there's one thing you must never do, it's argue with Science.

Plus, all those Win8 lovers are secret Nazis.

</godwinned;$this->thread>

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

So, what you're saying is that Nazis love kittens and puppies?

 

[elbe]

I routinely use Windows Media player. It's actually a very nice program, but Microsoft is dropping development of that. Perhaps this is driven by the paradigm changes in the market where watching internet programming is beginning to surpass watching cable programming.

I'm speculating but that could be in reaction to the EU competition case. They may have decided it's easier just not put media player on their by default and that most people probably aren't going to choose to install it themselves.

Personally I think they should have gone with a bare bones media player, like MPC is, just so it can play most media out of the box but without being as big and troublesome as WMP can be.

 

[Aepervius]

Or press the Windows key on the keyboard. That always worked for the start menu; still does (mutatis mutandis).

The windows key ? The one most user find very annoying and mostly never use, the one you have to grab in the windows doc to find its usage rather than have a convenient summary, and many gamer remove from the keyboard because most game application did not like to out-tab and crashed when the windows key was hit ? That widnows key ?

There is something I learned while mainaining IT system. A lot of people are unable to see beyond the convenience of their own comfort, or their own job, and aprticularly that runs rampant among the IT folk deploying the machine. Rather than understand the user requirement, and user convenience, they do concern their own and that's it. And when you point to them that we do have a business requirement to use VM and some sort of development software they scream "we can't do that ! We can't have it in the standard deployment!" and asking them to have a non standard deployment for a special group of user make them scream like little girl about the cost of having more than one deployment profile.

This thread is a gigantic reminder why my firm finally after so many complaint decided to put somebody like me in the team which do the IT deployments to make sure they do not forget that they are there to support the business primarly , and only make their own life easy if the primary requirement is not abandonned.

The BOFH is still alive in some IT department apparently.

 

[Rat]

The windows key? The one most users find very annoying and mostly never use; the one you have to grab in the windows doc to find its usage rather than have a convenient summary, and many gamers remove from the keyboard because most game applications did not like to out-tab and crashed when the windows key was hit? That windows key?

I don't know about most users. I always found it quite useful. I can't remember a game from the last 15 years or so that would crash out when you pressed it.

There is something I learned while maintaining IT systems. A lot of people are unable to see beyond the convenience of their own comfort, or their own job, and particularly that runs rampant among the IT folk deploying the machine. Rather than understand the user's requirement, and user convenience, they do concern their own and that's it. And when you point to them that we do have a business requirement to use VM and some sort of development software they scream "we can't do that! We can't have it in the standard deployment!" and asking them to have a non standard deployment for a special group of user make them scream like little girl about the cost of having more than one deployment profile.

This thread is a gigantic reminder why my firm finally after so many complaint decided to put somebody like me in the team which do the IT deployments to make sure they do not forget that they are there to support the business primarily, and only make their own life easy if the primary requirement is not abandoned.

The BOFH is still alive in some IT departments apparently.

Or possibly someone who does a good job of supporting users in whatever way helps the business runs better, but occasionally finds it exasperating and uses sarcasm to express the frustration.

 

[Wowbagger]

I don't know about most users. I always found it quite useful.

When you are designing an OS for everyone, you have to understand that NOT everyone finds everything useful that you find useful.

Power users can put up with less convenient conveyance, but most users are not power users.

I, for one, usually set the Taskbar on Auto-hide. So, yes, (perhaps ironically), I DON'T have a Start button constantly on screen. However, I was the one who CHOSE to auto-hide it: It was NOT a default setting. And, I understand MOST people don't like it that way, so I often take it out of auto-hide mode when other people are using my computers.

I can't remember a game from the last 15 years or so that would crash out when you pressed it.

To be fair, game developers are getting better at accounting for its presence.

I can name a few that crashed from within the past 15 years. But, perhaps not so much in the past 3-5 years.

I have known a few people who plucked that key out of their keyboards, in the past. I forgot about that.
I usually only pluck the Sleep and Power keys from my keyboards.

 

[Aepervius]

I don't know about most users. I always found it quite useful. I can't remember a game from the last 15 years or so that would crash out when you pressed it.

just google "Crash on alt+tab out of the game" and you will find plenty of example.

The one I know of because it is irking me to no end is skyrim. BF4 too IIRC. Those are not 15 years old.

As a rule any game which does not like you to tab out will also crash on windows key, because you guess it.

In fact you will see this advice on many forum for gamer complaining about the windows key "rip out the windows key and throw it far away".

Again, because you don't remember something does not mean it does not happen. In fact I am foing a lot of PC gaming, and while it has gotten better, there are still game which crashes because of alt tab nowadays.

So yeah, see how it turns out funny when you take a different perspective and put yourself into the seat of a power user , suddenly your advice does seem condescendent.