Windows 8: how did so much suck happen?

Travis said:
I just got a new computer. As is to be expected it came with Windows 8.

And boy do I hate it.

I mean my reaction can be summed up as: why did they change this? Why did they do that? Have they not heard of multitasking? Did they think everyone just loved the clunky interfaces of smart phones? Who possibly thought any of this was a good idea?


So many things I used to do on Vista (itself notorious for being clunky) are now harder. How did this happen?
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:confused: You must be extremely young. Never had a Microsoft product before?
 
Lolly said:
but it doesn't really, does it, if you still buy it?
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Windows has a great deal of inertia. It comes installed on new laptops. It is required for the software I use. When I buy a printer or accessory, I can be sure it will support Windows first and foremost.

So, MS is in a position where they can jerk me around a lot before they lose me as a customer. They are taking full advantage of that position. I have put up with it so far, but I don't like it.
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
Windows has a great deal of inertia. It comes installed on new laptops. It is required for the software I use. When I buy a printer or accessory, I can be sure it will support Windows first and foremost.

So, MS is in a position where they can jerk me around a lot before they lose me as a customer. They are taking full advantage of that position. I have put up with it so far, but I don't like it.
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I don't know why you say that - it is inconceivable that Microsoft would deliberately try to screw over users of older versions of Windows.

In many ways Microsoft was being incredibly brave, trying to create a new way to access and use our desktop PCs and other connected devices. Unfortunately they didn't - for a lot of reasons - achieve that goal but I applaud their attempt to do so.

Some innovations will work and some will fail, in a way for us to have successful innovation we have to have mistakes and failures - they are what we learn from.

If nothing else Windows 8 will benefit many companies, it will help them to know more about what does work and what doesn't work.
 
Darat said:
I don't know why you say that - it is inconceivable that Microsoft would deliberately try to screw over users of older versions of Windows.

In many ways Microsoft was being incredibly brave, trying to create a new way to access and use our desktop PCs and other connected devices. Unfortunately they didn't - for a lot of reasons - achieve that goal but I applaud their attempt to do so.

Some innovations will work and some will fail, in a way for us to have successful innovation we have to have mistakes and failures - they are what we learn from.

If nothing else Windows 8 will benefit many companies, it will help them to know more about what does work and what doesn't work.
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I am surprised that you would have such a forgiving view of Microsoft here. I don't find it credible that they didn't realize that millions of people were going to be disadvantaged by their action. Even among the people that are Windows 8 supporters in this thread, there have been none that have been able to identify any significant advantages to users of the Windows 8 UI on desktop computers.

Microsoft made the WIndows 8 decisions in spite of the harm it would do to its base of users of desktop systems. It did it because it judged that the financial gain it would derive from increased mobile OS markets and greater control of software distribution in the desktop market would outweigh the financial disadvantages from a disgruntled user base.

It is my hope that they misjudged and they will not be rewarded for making decisions against the interests of their customers. When I was a fairly young electrical engineer IBM dominated the desktop computer market. I watched as they made decisions based on a theory that they were invincible when they weren't. It would make me happy to watch Microsoft's theory of their own invincibility be rewarded in a way similar to the way IBM's was.
 
Darat said:
I don't know why you say that - it is inconceivable that Microsoft would deliberately try to screw over users of older versions of Windows.

In many ways Microsoft was being incredibly brave, trying to create a new way to access and use our desktop PCs and other connected devices. Unfortunately they didn't - for a lot of reasons - achieve that goal but I applaud their attempt to do so.

Some innovations will work and some will fail, in a way for us to have successful innovation we have to have mistakes and failures - they are what we learn from.

If nothing else Windows 8 will benefit many companies, it will help them to know more about what does work and what doesn't work.
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Microsoft is not a charity. Their first priority is to survive, and if they can do that by leveraging their market power to sell me an inferior product, they will.

People still need to buy Windows. As long as that is true, Microsoft can package it with other things customers don't need. I don't need to help Microsoft learn from their mistakes.

You say Windows 8 will benefit customers by helping them know more about what does work and what doesn't work. In my case, I already know what works -- one OS for tablets and one OS for desktops. Having one OS for both only benefits Microsoft and does not benefit me.
 
Darat said:
I don't know why you say that - it is inconceivable that Microsoft would deliberately try to screw over users of older versions of Windows.

In many ways Microsoft was being incredibly brave, trying to create a new way to access and use our desktop PCs and other connected devices. Unfortunately they didn't - for a lot of reasons - achieve that goal but I applaud their attempt to do so.

Some innovations will work and some will fail, in a way for us to have successful innovation we have to have mistakes and failures - they are what we learn from.

If nothing else Windows 8 will benefit many companies, it will help them to know more about what does work and what doesn't work.
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Their whole consumer strategy has been the opposite of bravery and innovation. Netscape was a hit, so MS came up with IE. Google was a hit, so MS came up with Bing. Android and iOS were hits, so MS came up with Windows 8 and its beta-quality mobile UI.

The few times MS has tested the waters with anything that could really be described as innovative (e.g. Microsoft Bob) it has flopped because of poor implementation and a poor underlying grasp of what users want.

If they were brave, they would put out a tablet with their mobile UI, to compete with the successful offerings in that category.

But they realize it would fail. They have no confidence in their own ability to innovate. So their strategy has been to force their mobile UI on the market by incorporating it into the desktop environment, where they have a legacy dominance, even though it makes no sense in that environment.

The crowning irony of this is that MS had an early lead in the mobile market with Windows CE. They squandered it because they didn't listen to people who said, "forget the corporate orthodoxy about a single Windows interface - the desktop interface does not work on a tiny screen."

Now they have made the same mistake in reverse, trying to foist a mobile interface onto the desktop.

I don't call that bravery. I call it chronic stupidity driven by block-headed management and an entrenched bureaucracy within the company. I am reminded of what Barbara Tuchman said about Philip II: "No experience of the failure of his policy could shake his belief in its essential excellence."
 
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Darat said:
I don't know why you say that - it is inconceivable that Microsoft would deliberately try to screw over users of older versions of Windows.
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Ever heard of systemic obsolescence?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

How are Microsoft ever going to sell new versions of their software (Word, Excel, Access, Publisher ect) if people are happy to use their existing versions on the new platform?
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
So, MS is in a position where they can jerk me around a lot before they lose me as a customer. They are taking full advantage of that position. I have put up with it so far, but I don't like it.
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I understand what you are saying, what I am saying is that they can jerk you (and all the users whose businesses are set up to use Windows) around as much as they choose and that there's no upper limit at which they'll "lose customers". They won't lose you customers because their customers have no options. People may not like it, but they won't be "lost" as customers, they'll just keep paying as they always have done and they'll take whatever MS serves up.

As for "alternatives" ALL of the providers are headed in the same direction. No local control, all software and equipment hired, all control over the data controlled by others, subscription payments to use "their" systems and access "your" data. They don't have to market software any more, there won't be any personal computers to sell the software for.
 
OnlyTellsTruths said:
I don't want to get all CT here, but there was a very widespread XP bug that many are very suspicious of...
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If you mean the svchost CPU bug, I doubt they did it on purpose. I see it as yet more blithering incompetence. If you let it run its course, it eventually finishes whatever it is doing and the problem goes away.

They recently delivered a Windows 8 update that broke a lot of Office installs too. They are blundering along, screwing up left and right because of the way management runs the company, and users feel the pain.
 
Lolly said:
No local control, all software and equipment hired, all control over the data controlled by others, subscription payments to use "their" systems and access "your" data.
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God, do I hate the subscription model. I've been playing around with various video editors. One is subscription based and one you can buy outright. I was trying to get people to convince me that the subscription one was better and listed what I thought were the advantages of the non-subscription one.

The first reply I got said that it was cheaper. I then pointed out that in 3 years time the non-subscription editor would have worked out cheaper. I was then told that I'd have to upgrade in 3 years anywhere, whereupon I pointed out that that would still be cheaper (£110 compared to £120), but that I could sell my old copy of the non-subscription one. And if I didn't upgrade for 10 years that it'd be 3 times as expensive, I'd still have to shell out every year, and I couldn't treat the program as if it were my own.

Some say there's an advantage in that you get lots of little upgrades all the time, but not all upgrades are better (look at the thread we're in - if Windows worked on the subscription model we'd all be using Windows 8, like it or not), and if that were truly the reason for it (rather than it making more money), then it wouldn't hurt companies to offer both a normal indefinite-license product and a subscription model product.

I really don't like it, but it is looking increasingly like that's the way it's going for all.

On a different note with there being no alternatives to Windows, there was noise when Windows 8 first came out from some game manufacturers (and, IIRC, at least one major application manufacturer) about not developing for Windows 8 but instead focusing on Linux. I know that the touted "Steam Box" computer from Valve will run Linux. So, while this is all small potatoes at the moment, it's possible that there's a shift coming.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
I was then told that I'd have to upgrade in 3 years anywhere, whereupon I pointed out that that would still be cheaper (£110 compared to £120), but that I could sell my old copy of the non-subscription one.
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Not legally in most cases. And if you're not going to worry about doing it legally, then cost is not an issue at all.
 
Rat said:
Not legally in most cases.
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Most cases are irrelevant to a specific case.

And, in most cases, it'll be true for 10 years or so. So if there's no pressing reason to upgrade, then it'll still work out more expensive. Especially when you figure in the fact that most software sold on a permanent license have 2 ways of purchasing when they release new versions* - a full purchase for people who don't own the software, and a much cheaper upgrade for those who do.

So, for example, I currently own Cubase 6. If I were to buy a full version of Cubase 7.5 it'd cost me £488. But, if I were to upgrade my current copy, it'd cost me £203. So the idea that you have to pay the same amount that you did for the initial purchase every time you want to upgrade is incorrect.

Plus, you can't do this with Cubase, because it's got a dongle, but with most software if you want to upgrade, you can sell your old copy and recoup most of your costs.

But I don't want to upgrade, because there's no reason to. Therefore I don't have to spend out any more money than I already have. Unless something major happens in the next few years I can't see any reason to upgrade in the future, either.

The non-subscription model is much better, because you own what you've paid for, you only pay out the once, and you choose when and if you want to upgrade.

*Well, 3 actually, as you can usually buy a cheaper version for teaching, but that's irrelevant to my point.
 
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Squeegee Beckenheim said:
I know that the touted "Steam Box" computer from Valve will run Linux.
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I've never used Steam before, although I have heard of it. Your mention of Steam running on Linux made me think I might give it a try now.

I took a look at the site, it has a section for games that run on Linux. But I didn't want to spend any money, so I went to the Demo section. The vast majority of the demos require Windows, and of those few that can run on Apple, about half of them can run on Linux too.

Trying to install Steam from the site downloaded a Debian package called "steam_latest.deb". Clicking on that brought up the Ubuntu Software Center to a "Launcher for the Steam software distribution service" screen. Clicking on install (and typing in the system password to authorize installation of software) resulted in an error message, it couldn't find the right package on the Ubuntu site to install.

I managed to find a package with the right name on my own, and downloaded "curl_7.22.0-3ubuntu4.6_i386.deb". Clicking on that seemed to work, but nothing happened. When I went to download something from Steam, Firefox gave me an error message.

Looking in the games section of the Ubuntu Software Center, I found a Steam installer, and went to install it. But it wanted my email in order for me to open an "Ubuntu One" account, whatever that is. I didn't want to sign up for anything from Ubuntu just test Steam out, so I cancelled that.

But trying to recreate the error message to show you by trying to install a demo from Steam now, something else is happening. It's asking me which application to open it with. It's not giving me any suggestions, and clicking on Choose an Application has me looking through the filesystem rather than through the installed applications, so I have no idea what's going on.

Checking the Games menu, there's now an entry for Steam. Clicking on it there's a user agreement. After accepting it, it's now installing some kind of update.

Having given up on Steam for a bit, I installed a couple of games from the hundreds of (mostly crappy) free games available through the Ubuntu Software Center. I installed Hedgewars and SuperTux (a Mario-like game starring Tux the Linux Penguin). It took a while (I think there was something wrong with the Hedgewars site), but they both installed fine.

The other games I have on my system are the standard desktop games (like minesweeper), and a very large number of old DOS games running through DOSbox.

The Linux games I've installed in the past (and still are installed) are...

Doomsday Engine: Runs old Doom game files with greatly enhanced graphics and smoother movement (not just the original Doom WAD files, but fan-made Doom WAD files as well).

Little Space Duo: A demo game I've played all the way through.

Beneath A Steel Sky: I had an old DOS demo version for this, but discovered by accident that the full-version was available on Linux for free, so I installed it.

Tile World: A Chips-Challenge emulator that comes with a fan-made level-pack. Can also play the original Chips-Challenge levels.


And now Steam has finished updating, and presented me with another user agreement. Having clicked on that I now have to create a Steam account...

Damn. Brian_M has already gone. Even putting in my full last-name doesn't work. Everything seems to be taken already. Trying more... Okay, I've got BrianNotHere.

Looks like it's put an icon on my desktop.

Okay, I've installed Life Goes On. The demo works fine, although it was a bit confusing at first because I couldn't seem to move my character. Turns out that you die immediately upon starting, because you land on sharp spiky things. You have to press space to create a new character... and another... and another, so each character walks safely across the bodies of those who died before.

Well, I've now got Steam working on Linux. That's a couple of hours wasted, and one pointless thread derail.
 
Rat said:
Not legally in most cases.
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It's not illegal to breach a contract and chances are that you are not doing that in any case.

Even worse than people not realizing what is going on is the way that they've sucked up the misinformation spread by those who want them to do as they're told.

It isn't just a "subscription model" that's in the works, it's also control of the hardware so that if you do anything "illegal" (:D) according to the software licensor, they'll shut you down....
 
Lolly said:
It's not illegal to breach a contract and chances are that you are not doing that in any case.

Even worse than people not realizing what is going on is the way that they've sucked up the misinformation spread by those who want them to do as they're told.

It isn't just a "subscription model" that's in the works, it's also control of the hardware so that if you do anything "illegal" (:D) according to the software licensor, they'll shut you down....
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And nobody is going to tolerate that until and unless MS makes its own hardware like Apple does.
 
Charlie Wilkes said:
Their whole consumer strategy has been the opposite of bravery and innovation. Netscape was a hit, so MS came up with IE. Google was a hit, so MS came up with Bing. Android and iOS were hits, so MS came up with Windows 8 and its beta-quality mobile UI.
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You forgot the Zune. (Available in brown, such innovation!)
 
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