Will the Humanities Save Us?

Just for info: In the UK, you can teach at Universities without any "teaching" qualification. A PhD is the usual minimum qualification for a Lectureship position. Surprisingly enough, you need a Batchelor's and (usually) Master's to get a PhD.

In the UK, there are a large number of State tertiary education institutions dedicated entirely to art.

Tokie - earlier in the the thread I gave you a long, specific and evidenced list of job adverts seeking humanities graduates. You are demonstrably and laughably wrong.
 
Anyway...do you have any idea how many people with "film" degrees are waiting tables--and will be forever--in LA and NY?

I can guarantee you there are plenty of science graduates waiting tables too. This is not a sleight on the value of BScs. In fact, I know a guy with a PhD in soil physics who's currently working in a shoe store for minimum wage. Should we cut all state funding for physics degrees?
 
ever see any jobs on craigs' list for editors, writers, etc? strangely, i have. many go to j-school grads but many go to um... people with BAs in Miltonian Studies or Shakespeare etc.

while no 'art' job checks for credentials... maybe, just maybe a person with a modicum of talent *might* hone their craft at a good school? just a thought. you think maybe, just maybe, the study of Shakespeare *might* be useful to an aspiring writer? probably not, writing for a living just isn't practical.


I see a few such jobs, very, very occasionally. Of course, if you know ANYthing about that industry, you know that most of those jobs are posted only because they have to in order to look like they are not doing what that industry does when it comes to such jobs.

If you are the niece (nephews, generally, unless Gay, need not apply) of an ed. already working in the industry, you have a job. Otherwise, look into the exciting opportunities in food service.

What do you mean when you say "writer"? Fiction? Non-fiction?

Fiction: anyone who can write can do this, they don't need a degree in Willie S. to do it.

Non-Fiction: anyone with a degree in Art, writing about say, forensic medicine, has an icicle's chance of succeeding.

All this aside, you essentially prove my point. Sure, there have also been one or two people who never played high school or college football who went to the open try outs for a pro football team and made the cut.

So, we should encourage anyone aspiring to play football at the pro level (about the same chances as becoming a professional novelist, these days) to skip those unnecessary steps?

Tokie
 
I can guarantee you there are plenty of science graduates waiting tables too. This is not a sleight on the value of BScs. In fact, I know a guy with a PhD in soil physics who's currently working in a shoe store for minimum wage. Should we cut all state funding for physics degrees?

I know a guy with a English degree who studies water and soil samples for the city...so?

I don't think this can be discussed on an individual level.

Tokie
 
This has to be one of the most bizarre threads I've ever read. It seems like Tokie's real complaint is the devaluation of arts degrees, yet his solution would lead to the same problem with science degrees.

I think that the devaluation of degrees is a real problem, personally, but I would like to see a different solution: shove more material into high school so that high school diplomas are worth something again. That, and stop telling kids that they must all go to college/university in order to get anywhere in life. You don't need a degree to work in a factory, for instance. (unless you want to be a plant engineer or something like that) (edit... oh I must add, in case someone gets the wrong idea: I'm very much PRO education!!! I do worry about the devaluation problem, though.)

For a science student, I presume, you have a remarkably...limited grasp of how assertions of the sort you are making here are to be made...

How would this possibly devalue a science degree?

Where do you get the idea that I am opposed to teaching more to kids in high school? That's a big part of the problem in higher ed. Not that they don't like it, by the way...all those kids coming to them every year, year after year in need of remedial courses in...well, everything, means $$!

Tokie
 
I love it when you hurt your argument unknowingly. The answer is yes an engineer should know some psychology. I would also throw some theater into that too. I would also say music is a good idea. It all depends on what you want to do. Psychology and theater are utilized in robotics. When I first started college music classes were recommended if I wanted to go work at a company like Bose.

Nope. That isn't even correct. If you want to become a patent attorney you do not get your law degree first.

You are quite comical...so every engineer is hired by Bose?

Hmmm....

I know several patent attorneys, all of them have degrees in some sort of engineering...um, of course, you apparently don't understand that you can't (normally, today, in the USA) get a law degree without getting a BA/BS in SOMETHING else, first, but I love your begging of the question here to make that ol' dumby Tokie look even dumber!

Tokie
 
I know a guy with a English degree who studies water and soil samples for the city...so?

I don't think this can be discussed on an individual level.

Tokie

Your entire argument - that some people with arts degrees wait tables for a living and thus we should cut funding for arts degrees - relies on an argument about individuals.

Are most arts graduates employed? Do arts graduates earn more than non-graduates? Do arts degrees provide training relevant to a wide variety of fields? Do employers actively seek out arts graduates? The answer to all these questions is, manifestly, yes. It is only to appeal to individual cases that your argument makes any sense, and even then it barely makes any. The broader statistics do not support your case at all.

You want to cut funding for arts degrees because some people with history degrees aren't working as historians. This is silly. There are probably fewer people with degrees in maths working as mathematicians than there are people with history degrees working as historians, but I note you're not calling for all maths funding to be cut, or mocking those with maths degrees.

There are also many, many people with BScs waiting tables too, and many working outside the field of their major. So what? That has no bearing on the validity of their degrees or the amount of funding their subjects should receive. Degrees are not (necessarily) vocational training, and one need not get a job in the exact field you studied for that degree to have been "worthwhile". Your argument is grounded in that flawed premise, and it's absurd.
 
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i like your solution

i understand the "tokie" plan a little better now that i've caught up on reading this thread---if you study, say, art, then you must sign an agreement to go straightaway into grad school in order to get loans or een be able to major in art, as an undergrad at a state school (like where i studied art, UNC-Chapel Hill). if this is wrong, correct me, but that's my understanding.

had i done so i a) wouldn't have gotten a job in my field right out of school because i'd still have been in school. i wouldn't have been able to work for 15 years in my chosen field(s) before grad school, as i would have had to commit to a state grad school in order to major in art. a state school would have been all i could afford had i gone straight to grad school without that 15 years of work. in real life, thanks to that 15 years of 'real world' experience, i went to grad school at an ivy league school.

anecdotal, sure. doesn't prove anything. basically, if "Tokie" were in charge, i most likely would have found a way to get where i wanted to be, but it would have been more difficult. arguably i might be better off without any degrees and certainly could still be doing the work i want to do. that said, i learned how to paint and how to think about and tell stories at UNC, and found my 'art' degree with a lot of comp lit and short story writing courses quite useful.

and "Tokie"--are school loans really the problem? do elaborate, as government loans are available at private universities also.

Just because you follow every example you provide with, "yeah, I know that's anecdotal, but..." does not excuse its anecdotal nature. Apparently you learnt to read and write, but not to think.

But thank you for helping prove my case.

Yes, federally-backed loans, grants and stuff are available for people going to private colleges....who said they weren't?

You really need to learn to read more closely...my issue is with my taxes going to subsidize state colleges and unis where they churn out thousands of these useless BAs and BSs ever year. Why should I be tapped to pay someone to party for 4 or 5 years and then get the exact same job they could've gotten right out of high school, waiting tables or selling cell accessories from a kiosk in the mall?

"Tokie"
 
Your entire argument - that some people with arts degrees wait tables for a living and thus we should cut funding for arts degrees - relies on an argument about individuals.

Are most arts graduates employed? Do arts graduates earn more than non-graduates? Do arts degrees provide training relevant to a wide variety of fields? Do employers actively seek out arts graduates? The answer to all these questions is, manifestly, yes. It is only to appeal to individual cases that your argument makes any sense, and even then it barely makes any. The broader statistics do not support your case at all.

You want to cut funding for arts degrees because some people with history degrees aren't working as historians. This is silly. There are probably fewer people with degrees in maths working as mathematicians than there are people with history degrees working as historians, but I note you're not calling for all maths funding to be cut, or mocking those with maths degrees.

There are also many, many people with BScs waiting tables too, and many working outside the field of their major. So what? That has no bearing on the validity of their degrees or the amount of funding their subjects should receive. Degrees are not (necessarily) vocational training, and one need not get a job in the exact field you studied for that degree to have been "worthwhile". Your argument is grounded in that flawed premise, and it's absurd.

Those with math degrees are widely employable (and sought after) in many other fields than "mathematician" from banking and bookkeeping to compters and manufacturing. Those with history degrees are sought after only in food service, or as history teachers.

See the difference?

Yes, there are many people with all sorts of degrees doing all sorts of jobs. There are FEWER people with economically viable degrees (to today's marketplace) waiting tables than are there people with "arts" degrees doing so.

Tokie
 
Those with math degrees are widely employable (and sought after) in many other fields than "mathematician" from banking and bookkeeping to compters and manufacturing. Those with history degrees are sought after only in food service, or as history teachers.

Demonstrably false. I provided a list of links to jobs at Jobs.com which sought humanities graduates. You can also check the statistics for the average wages and employment rates for such graduates to see how very wrong you are. Are you willfully ignorant? Are you so tied to your weird, dogmatic ideology that even naked facts cannot break the barrier of your obstinate cluelessness? It's almost as if you want to be wrong.

Yes, there are many people with all sorts of degrees doing all sorts of jobs. There are FEWER people with economically viable degrees (to today's marketplace) waiting tables than are there people with "arts" degrees doing so.
Prove it.
 
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Demonstrably false. I provided a list of links to jobs at Jobs.com which sought humanities graduates. You can also check the statistics for the average wages and employment rates for such graduates to see how very wrong you are. Are you willfully ignorant? Are you so tied to your weird, dogmatic ideology that even naked facts cannot break the barrier of your obstinate cluelessness? It's almost as if you want to be wrong.

Prove it.

Let's see whether I follow you: those with "arts" degrees in today's economy are more employable and at a higher rate of pay than those with business or science or technologcial/engineering degrees.

Ah.

I see.

Tokie
 
Let's see whether I follow you: those with "arts" degrees in today's economy are more employable and at a higher rate of pay than those with business or science or technologcial/engineering degrees.

They are not less employable, and do not necessarily earn a lower rate of pay. I believe statistics to back this up have already been provided - if you care not to read them, that's your problem.

In some respects, I'd wager that humanities degrees are becoming more sought after as manufacturing and engineering jobs are off-shored and we, in the UK at least, move towards a knowledge economy. No good having a degree in electrical engineering in Britain if all the electrical engineering jobs are in China.

And in any case, you're still presuming that the only value of a degree is employability. This is very, very simplistic, especially coming from someone who, as an English teacher, should value cultural literacy.

I know you're bitter about the shoddy hand life dealt you (being sacked for being too good must be a hard blow to take, after all), but to extrapolate that to conclude that everyone with a humanities degree is undeserving, wasteful and unemployable is pretty absurd. Maybe you need to look closer to home?
 
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now there's a red herring. can you identify one person with a ONLY a year degree from a US University in ANYTHING who is a licensed attorney in the US? <<and if it is possible to practice law without a law degree (i have no idea i'm not a lawyer), why not yank funding of law schools from the public books? >> (added later)

In a few U.S. states a law degree is not necessary to sit for the bar. So, theoretically at least, there is the logical possibility that there is someone out there with a B.A. in Philosophy who is now a practicing attorney.
 
They are not less employable, and do not necessarily earn a lower rate of pay. I believe statistics to back this up have already been provided - if you care not to read them, that's your problem.

In some respects, I'd wager that humanities degrees are becoming more sought after as manufacturing and engineering jobs are off-shored and we, in the UK at least, move towards a knowledge economy. No good having a degree in electrical engineering in Britain if all the electrical engineering jobs are in China.

And in any case, you're still presuming that the only value of a degree is employability. This is very, very simplistic, especially coming from someone who, as an English teacher, should value cultural literacy.

I know you're bitter about the shoddy hand life dealt you (being sacked for being too good must be a hard blow to take, after all), but to extrapolate that to conclude that everyone with a humanities degree is undeserving, wasteful and unemployable is pretty absurd. Maybe you need to look closer to home?

First of all, this is not GB. I have no idea what your economy might be looking for. I would guess, from what little I know, that your economy is much more....forgiving, as well. Here, we are very specialized. While it's true that SOME who have say, an Art degree will end up running a medical database, the reality is that those few will be very, very few.

Your nearly constant slams, by the way, are a bit childish. What happened is what happened; that it would likely not happen in a school in GB, speaks to your ignorance of how things are run here, not to my being a nutcase. If you don't believe me, move here for a time and take a job as a public school teacher. Until then, I'd suggest shutting your fat, flapping pie hole on that particular subject.

My argument here has nothing to do with my former teaching or my education. It has to do with a rational, practical appreciation for today's employment market.

It is not, today, any longer, simply enough to have a sheepskin--in anything--and you get to write your own ticket. It was when I grew up, to be sure, but a college degree (even a 2-yr one) was a relative rarity in those days and was viewed in a much more...liberal light than today, with the expectations that you bring to this argument, today (suggesting your own advanced age).

Yes, yes...it's all well and good for a college prof to tell me how a good education is its own reward and if you spend $30-$250k (USD) getting one, so what if the only job you ever have is waiting tables (actually, some wait jobs pay very well...I know this. So please don't now turn this around...very, very few people are going to go through the trouble and expense of a college education with their goals set on a waiting job...they may fall into that after school, figure out they can make a good living at it and as an indidental fact have a college degree, but there are no 4-year degrees in Waiting, that I am aware of).

Tokie
 
In a few U.S. states a law degree is not necessary to sit for the bar. So, theoretically at least, there is the logical possibility that there is someone out there with a B.A. in Philosophy who is now a practicing attorney.

Yes, theoretically. Try getting a job in a law firm after passing the bar, but not having attended law school.

Good luck!

And yes, there are those who do this, and then make a reasonably good living filling out forms for folks, and that's fine. But most legal careers demand law school.

Tokie
 
There are a number of PRIVATE institutions here that specialize in only art. Good for them. I don't subsidize their students....they can teach whatever they want to whomever they wish.

Uh, wrong. Their students get subsidized student loans too, you know. Subsidized by whom, you might ask? That's right, the American tax payer. The only school that I know of that doesn't accept government money of one kind or another (and isn't an uncredited diploma mill) is Hillsdale College in Michigan.
 
Uh, wrong. Their students get subsidized student loans too, you know. Subsidized by whom, you might ask? That's right, the American tax payer. The only school that I know of that doesn't accept government money of one kind or another (and isn't an uncredited diploma mill) is Hillsdale College in Michigan.

Why is this so difficult for those with a vested argument to understand: I said nothing about loans (though I think those should have similar restrictions)...the state colleges and universities here are subsidized directly, by taxpayers. In some regards that's good, because it keeps tuition lower than it would otherwise be.

But it's not good if it's paying some idiot to get a useless degree for "the love of learning."

Tokie
 
Why is this so difficult for those with a vested argument to understand: I said nothing about loans (though I think those should have similar restrictions)...the state colleges and universities here are subsidized directly, by taxpayers. In some regards that's good, because it keeps tuition lower than it would otherwise be.

But it's not good if it's paying some idiot to get a useless degree for "the love of learning."

Tokie

Most colleges and universities in the United States are non-profits. They aren't taxed like other institutions of similar size or asset base. That's another example of subsidization by the state (federal and state level).

If you're going to be consistent, you'll need to go all the way to the bottom, rooting out any entanglement of education and the state.
 
It is not, today, any longer, simply enough to have a sheepskin--in anything--and you get to write your own ticket. It was when I grew up, to be sure, but a college degree (even a 2-yr one) was a relative rarity in those days and was viewed in a much more...liberal light than today, with the expectations that you bring to this argument, today (suggesting your own advanced age).

I'm 28 next month, thanks for asking.

In any case, I don't believe anyone is suggesting that a degree, in anything, is a passport to a job. Of course it isn't. But the facts remain that a) graduates of all disciplines are more employable and earn more than non-graduates and that b) that's generally irrelevant, given that the point of a degree is not to get you a job at the end of it. How many chemical engineering graduates do you think end up not working as chemical engineers? How many law graduates end up working in fields other than law? I have a friend with a first in Geology from Cambridge who is working as a medical journalist. Was her degree a waste of time and / or money?

Your whole argument is predicated on two misunderstandings. The first is the obvious one that, as has been shown, there is a demand for humanities graduates in the marketplace, and that companies (in the US and the UK) are actively and explicitly seeking out those with humanities degrees. The second is that (virtually) no-one goes into a history or art degree with the pretense of coming out and walking into a job as a Historian (with a capital H) or Artist (with a capital A) (or even Engineer, Mathematician or Physicist). This does not matter, because the point of a degree is to get a degree, and not to learn a narrow set of vocational skills. In fact, were this the case it would actually be harder for graduates (of any discipline) to find work, because their would be lots of people trained to very high proficiency in a very, very narrow field of knowledge. A degree is not wasted, or pointless, or irrelevant just because someone who has studied it does not get a job in the exact, narrow field that shares its name with the one on their diploma.

How many physics students do you suppose end up as working physicists? Were we to follow the model you propose for humanities in this instance, there would be no state funding for physics.

We cannot, practically or pedagogically, have a specific, vocational degree course for every conceivable career. Thus your argument, such that it is, is absurd from its very outset.

Yes, yes...it's all well and good for a college prof to tell me how a good education is its own reward and if you spend $30-$250k (USD) getting one, so what if the only job you ever have is waiting tables (actually, some wait jobs pay very well...I know this. So please don't now turn this around...very, very few people are going to go through the trouble and expense of a college education with their goals set on a waiting job...they may fall into that after school, figure out they can make a good living at it and as an indidental fact have a college degree, but there are no 4-year degrees in Waiting, that I am aware of).
College graduates earn considerably more, on average, than non-graduates. Of course some courses have higher returns (on average) than others, but that's just an obvious truism.

The percentage of graduates, of any stripe, working tables is slim and / or temporary. I know plenty of people who worked in menial jobs or as temps for a year or so after graduating (often, might I add, out of choice rather than need) before landing excellent, high-salaried positions.

Your bald assertions have no basis in reality (as usual).
 
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Most colleges and universities in the United States are non-profits. They aren't taxed like other institutions of similar size or asset base. That's another example of subsidization by the state (federal and state level).

If you're going to be consistent, you'll need to go all the way to the bottom, rooting out any entanglement of education and the state.

I don't know that "most" are non-profit....there are a helluva lot of little trade and tech schools out there.

Most state and large unis CLAIM they are...they of course are not, but whatever.

I really don't care. And I don't care about "going to the bottom." I care about subsidizing "educations" that are valuless in the marketplace.

Tokie
 

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