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Wikileaks. Any comments?

As silly as this may be, I support both viewpoints. I don't know how to find the balance between current security (which argues for government documents being secure, at least for the duration of whatever issue is being addressed) and our right to know what's being done in our name and with our money (which argues for full disclosure).

How can we tell the government to back off if we don't know what they're doing? How can they do their job with every memo and quip being public?
 
There are few things so amusing as the indignant wrath of people complaining about being found out.
 
It's difficult to tell the difference between things governments are glad of being "leaked" and those they're not so glad about. China supports an end to North Korea? I'm going to have to wear a tinfoil tinted hat about wikileaks for now and believe me I seldom wear one.
 
As silly as this may be, I support both viewpoints. I don't know how to find the balance between current security (which argues for government documents being secure, at least for the duration of whatever issue is being addressed) and our right to know what's being done in our name and with our money (which argues for full disclosure).

How can we tell the government to back off if we don't know what they're doing? How can they do their job with every memo and quip being public?

Don't feel badly. You're not alone. I agree with you.
 
I think Wikileaks (plus any future similar manifestations) is the best thing to happen to Democracy since... hmm... well.... Democritus.

In the same way that if you believe that an omniscient God can see all your actions, similarly, if you are some civil servant having to enforce some awful policy or action that will almost certainly result in many civillians being killed (e.g. Iraq, Afghanistan,.. or for the 60s crowd, Vietnam) then, for that civil servant or politican, the prospect of any action being potentially made public is - morally - a wonderful thing,
It means they could object and/or strike on moral grounds and receive, perhaps, official disapproval, but ultimately be vindicated due to the fact they were resisting immoral use of power. All this is a great development thanks to technology and the moral bravery of someone such as Julian Assange.
The Greeks would understand and love him.

No wonder he's been accused of rape by those *****.
Edited by kmortis: 
Let the autocensor do its job
 
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Here are the most interesting things I learned from Wikileaks:

1) 99% of the things we spend enormous sums of money to keep secret don't need to be secret.
2) Our folks in the "know" don't know very much.
3) Espionage seems less effective than simple reasoning: Saudi Arabia would benefit from an American attack on their largest oil export competitor, I'm SHOCKED.

This whole security state we've been building up since WWII is useless, expensive, and nothing more than theater.
 
I think this latest batch is going to have very negative consequences for our diplomatic efforts. Diplomacy is all about deciding what to disclose to whom. I don't see anything good to come from making these sorts of things public.
 
Well, I dunno. I understand (I admit I have only seen rumours, not the actual leak) that Obama thinks David Cameron is a bit of a twit.
If this is correct, it seems at least someone in U.S.Intelligence is awake.
 
Remove the cosmetic cover,remove silicons, remove the botox , remove the dental work ,remove the toupee/wig and then see the any actor.

This is what wikileaks has done.
 
For those who don't want to bother reading them directly, Wikipedia's doing a quick summary of the great revelations, organized by country. Some of them are quite funny. I checked out the photo of the Azerbaijan guy's wife and yeah, she definitely had too much plastic surgery.
 
Well I've learned that being an intelligence analyst in Iraq is a lot more fun than my crappy job. I don't get to listen to Lady Gaga, I don't get access to Facebook or Twitter and I don't get to chat on the Internet with strangers. And...get this, my lousy boss actually monitors what I'm doing!
 
For those who don't want to bother reading them directly, Wikipedia's doing a quick summary of the great revelations, organized by country. Some of them are quite funny. I checked out the photo of the Azerbaijan guy's wife and yeah, she definitely had too much plastic surgery.

Here, for those interested.


ETA: Here we have the shock revelation that Prince Andrew has his father's gift for diplomacy.
 
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There are few things so amusing as the indignant wrath of people complaining about being found out.

A post of yours from another thread seems applicable in this one:

Part of civilization is people assuming they know what you really mean and being completely wrong about it, but you let them draw the wrong conclusions in order to get along. Civilization would collapse entirely if people knew what everyone really meant.

This is even more true for diplomats, I think.
 
I hate Assange. Not the same way American conservatives hate him because they luv Amerka! I find him childish and petulant.

Lets start with how he leaks things in general and compare that to the pentagon papers. That is one we hear the most. Lets add what is expected of a good leak/whistle blower.

He leaks everything he has. The PP was a very specific leak. We expect leaks to be specific
He never adds any context. PP was a specific analysis. We want leaks that are revelatory.
He leaks stuff that is simply embarrassing or damaging to relations. PP demonstrated actual lies and crimes. A good leak represents something more than a gossip column.


Leak/whistleblowing is a very important, ethical thing to do. Like many ethical choices, it comes with dilemmas. I have a lot of respect for people who grapple with their decision. How much do they reveal to an investigating source and how much do they reveal to the public.

Assange gets to claim the trappings of ethical behavior, but does not review the documents. He checks veracity, I applaud him for that. I am sure he thinks that by releasing it all he is either ethical or avoiding the dilemma. I feel the decision to not get involved is unethical.

Take the document of the Saudi official commenting they would like to see Iran attacked. If you have it, do you leak it? A person (lets call her Sarah) received that information in trust and passed it along in trust. If there is an authority that if they knew, they would investigate Sarah, leaking the document to them means Sarah will receive some form of due process.

If you do not trust that authority, and leak it to the public, you are deciding to act as Judge, prosecutor, and part of Sarah's defense team. You are not the jury, that is the readers.

If you are making that decision, you have an ethical responsibility to consider relevance, damage inflicted, legality, context, and numerous other things. Wikileaks does none of that.

Another ethical value wikileaks ignores is fairness. Going after America in general is OK with me. It is the biggest country and in deep with two wars. True revelations about the war are important. However, Assange appears to be releasing everything on America without context. I think it is unethical that he is not being fair by not releasing the documents of other nations or not holding back on the US release. It should be obvious at his location that much of the leak is just embarrassing chaff. I feel it is unethical to release that material of only one nation if you cannot do the same for other nations.

My concept of fairness is grounded heavily in American common law. Remember when the supreme court through out the Texas sodomy laws? One of the reasons it was rejected was that a law on the books that is infrequently used and only used to unfairly target a group is unconstitutional. I feel that is a good reflection on the ethics of fairness and I feel wikileaks violates it.

Next, he says he is going to release documents on a large, American bank. It sounds like some of the documents will describe perfectly ethical behavior. In that case, why are those specific ones being released? Doesn't a company and the people in it have rights to their trade secrets? I am sure I can repeat this exact same post when he does it and note the same moral lapses.

I have an analogy to conclude. My best friend's wife tells my girlfriend everything she overhears between my best friend and I. It is all standard relationship stuff, but people are not pleased when they hear it. His wife is not some ethical whistleblower. She is just a gossip.
 
I can't believe Americans would speak behind peoples' backs like that. It must all be forged by that soldier, Bradley Assange, whatever. Mind you, he is Welsh, and they do talk behind your back - and sing behind your back too, I've heard.
 
He never adds any context. PP was a specific analysis. We want leaks that are revelatory.
He leaks stuff that is simply embarrassing or damaging to relations. PP demonstrated actual lies and crimes. A good leak represents something more than a gossip column.

He's giving us mountains of information and letting us decide on the relevance, importance,


Assange gets to claim the trappings of ethical behavior, but does not review the documents. He checks veracity, I applaud him for that. I am sure he thinks that by releasing it all he is either ethical or avoiding the dilemma. I feel the decision to not get involved is unethical.

They review them pretty closely to make sure that they're not revealing important information that could cost lives. Even the Pentagon concluded that no deaths could be attributed to the leaks.

Take the document of the Saudi official commenting they would like to see Iran attacked. If you have it, do you leak it? A person (lets call her Sarah) received that information in trust and passed it along in trust. If there is an authority that if they knew, they would investigate Sarah, leaking the document to them means Sarah will receive some form of due process.

This is why I find the whole "secretive" nature of these conversations to be useless farce. This information can be deduced by anyone who spends .02 sec considering the economics of the Middle East. The religious differences between Saudi Arabia and Iran need not even be considered. If American attacks Iran, Saudi Arabia makes a ****-ton of money because one of their major competitors gets demolished, and they spend no treasure and no lives of their own.

We literally learned nothing from that leak. The major thrust of Wikileaks is that America wastes a lot of time and money keeping obvious information secret.

Another ethical value wikileaks ignores is fairness. Going after America in general is OK with me. It is the biggest country and in deep with two wars. True revelations about the war are important. However, Assange appears to be releasing everything on America without context. I think it is unethical that he is not being fair by not releasing the documents of other nations or not holding back on the US release. It should be obvious at his location that much of the leak is just embarrassing chaff. I feel it is unethical to release that material of only one nation if you cannot do the same for other nations.

We have the information, it's our duty to put it in context.

My concept of fairness is grounded heavily in American common law. Remember when the supreme court through out the Texas sodomy laws? One of the reasons it was rejected was that a law on the books that is infrequently used and only used to unfairly target a group is unconstitutional. I feel that is a good reflection on the ethics of fairness and I feel wikileaks violates it.

Wikileaks is not a government bound by a Constitution. They're a private player. If he has a personal grudge against the US, so be it, he's just releasing information.

It should also be pointed out that many nations were affected by these leaks.

Next, he says he is going to release documents on a large, American bank. It sounds like some of the documents will describe perfectly ethical behavior. In that case, why are those specific ones being released? Doesn't a company and the people in it have rights to their trade secrets? I am sure I can repeat this exact same post when he does it and note the same moral lapses.

If he only released documents that displayed unethical behavior, people would complain that he was painting an unfair picture---you know, not giving any context.

I prefer the mass of information. This allows me and others that I respect and trust to go through the documents and discover for themselves what is and isn't important.

The only real problem that Wikileaks will cause is the doubling down of secretiveness in our government. Part of the reason they were able to get all of these transmissions was that agencies are required to share information in the wake of 9-11. If you'll recall, 9-11 occured in no small part because the FAA didn't have the information the FBI had. The FBI didn't have what the CIA had, and so on. Thus, more people were given access. This will most certainly end.

Of course, the better reaction would be to simply realize the futility of 99% of our secretive behavior.
 

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