WI Gov. Scott Walker implicated in criminal probe

RandFan said:
Only if the standard of living for the lower classes is falling.
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Is the standard of living for the lower classes falling?

RandFan said:
GM is private sector. I thought we were talking about public sector? I thought private sector had a check? I'm not an absolutist. I don't claim unions cannot result in failed business. But then neither can business. Workers are having to live on less and less. One way to reverse that trend is collective bargaining. It's not perfect but it is effective.
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The private sector examples were of unions refusing to budge even in the face of total ruin. It usually doesn't happen that way, but it certainly can.

RandFan said:
Walker's actions brought the unions to the bargaining table but he didn't want to bargain. He just wanted to unilaterally strip them of bargaining rights. Sorry you don't like the results of this discussion but your claim that there is no checks is demonstrably false. At the end of the day you can't have it both ways.
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I made no such claim. I said there were checks in the private sector that don't exist in the public sector, and that is demonstrably true. I never claimed there were no checks at all.
 
I doubt there will be anything that most people would consider "concrete" evidence linking Walker.

That being said, this is the same guy who was caught saying that he'd considered sending in fake protesters to cause trouble in order to put negative media on the real protesters during the collective bargaining demonstrations. Also it was my understanding that there are multiple people under walker who are implicated. They had an entire private network setup in the offices to use separately in an attempt to avoid getting caught doing what they were doing. You don't have aids and trusted people all around you doing all this without your knowledge or consent.

The way I look at it, to say that he isn't involved would mean that all these other people were in a conspiracy together behind his back.
 
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The_Animus said:
I doubt there will be anything that most people would consider "concrete" evidence linking Walker.

That being said, this is the same guy who was caught saying that he'd considered sending in fake protesters to cause trouble in order to put negative media on the real protesters during the collective bargaining demonstrations. Also it was my understanding that there are multiple people under walker who are implicated. They had an entire private network setup in the offices to use separately in an attempt to avoid getting caught doing what they were doing. You don't have aids and trusted people all around you doing all this without your knowledge or consent.

The way I look at it, to say that he isn't involved would mean that all these other people were in a conspiracy together behind his back.
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Since Claus isn't here: Evidence?
 
WildCat said:
So they agreed to unspecified "financial" concessions, and there was no written proposal.

What about other issues, like work rules? Hours? Age of retirement? Etc etc etc.

Here in Chicago the schools have a $700 million budget deficit, nearly half the kids don't graduate from high school, and the Chicago Teacher's Union is demanding a 30% pay raise (25% next year, 5% the next) and smaller class sizes. This is the kind of crap Wisconsin is trying to avoid.
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Teacher's unions are not typical unions in that regard. They give the Union movement a colossal bad name.
 
leftysergeant said:
Balderdash. Unions are democratic institutions. Corporations are not.

Elected officials who let the unions run wild can be removed and a new administration can restore order.

Not much we can do one way or another about the Koch roaches.
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At least not legally. Though at the rate they're gaining power (and using it), I half-suspect it won't be long before people take the law into their own hands, just as the French once did.
 
BenBurch said:
You're OK with people being denied the right to negotiate?

If so, I think we should deny corporations the right to negotiate too. Government doesn't need to pay $5 Billion for each new stealth fighter; We should just pay $50 million and tell the contractors to "suck it up."
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I wish we could 'plus' posts here...you'd get a big plus from me for this one.
 
RandFan said:
Yes.
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So how could this happen at heavily unionized Ford Motor Company? Earlier you claimed that unions prevented income gaps, and I'm pretty sure the income gap between unionized workers at Ford and their $55 million CEO has increased quite a bit in the last 40 years.
 
Still nothing on the Journal Sentinel site. How can the lamestream media ignore such an important story as the governor being implicated in criinal activity? Clearly, they are in Walker's pocket.
 
WildCat said:
So how could this happen at heavily unionized Ford Motor Company? Earlier you claimed that unions prevented income gaps, and I'm pretty sure the income gap between unionized workers at Ford and their $55 million CEO has increased quite a bit in the last 40 years.
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I don't claim that unions prevent income gaps. I claim that unions can prevent income gaps. I don't have an absolutist POV as it relates to labor relations. I believe that the best interests of labor is more likely to be achieved with labor unions.
 
eeyore1954 said:
Where does that show the standard of living of the lower class is falling? The quote you showed has nothingg to do with it.
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Yes it does.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph
It's the Inequality, Stupid

If the median household income had kept pace with the economy since 1970, it would now be nearly $92,000, not $50,000.
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$50,000 is less than $92,000. Income is a measure of standard of living. Given inflation workers can afford less and less.
 
RandFan said:
Yes it does.

$50,000 is less than $92,000. Income is a measure of standard of living. Given inflation workers can afford less and less.
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Let's see what you are missing here. First of all, you were asked to provide evidence that the standard of living for the "lower classes" was declining. Instead, you presented a chart on the median. It should be obvious that the median is not the lower class.

Second, you're comparing the growth in median household income to the overall economy, not to inflation. The economy almost always grows faster than inflation, and in fact, the median household income in [URL="http://www.davemanuel.com/median-household-income.php"]inflation-adjusted dollars has grown pretty steadily over the decades, with downturns during recessions.

Third, do you notice something odd about that Mother Jones chart? The green and the blue lines go all the way out to the end, but the red line (representing the average income of the top 1%) appears to stop sometime around 2007. Indeed, you'll notice that several of their charts seem to stop at 2007. I wonder why that could be? The answer is pretty simple if you look at the previous economic downturns; the rich do worse during recessions; their share of the pie suddenly shrinks. No surprise, the class warriors don't want to show that, because it undermines their argument.
 
Brainster said:
Let's see what you are missing here. First of all, you were asked to provide evidence that the standard of living for the "lower classes" was declining. Instead, you presented a chart on the median. It should be obvious that the median is not the lower class.

Second, you're comparing the growth in median household income to the overall economy, not to inflation.
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Thanks. You are correct that I used median income which is a poor metric because it doesn't take into account inequality. If the rich are rising and the poor are falling then the median can stay the same, correct? So, we can agree that median is a poor metric.

Do you claim that the standard of living for the lower middle class has remained static?

The economy almost always grows faster than inflation, and in fact, the median household income in inflation-adjusted dollars has grown pretty steadily over the decades, with downturns during recessions.
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But does that translate into growth for the lower tiers of society?

ahiu.jpg


Do you claim that the standard of living for the 3rd. 4th and bottom 5ths have remained static factoring inflation?

Third, do you notice something odd about that Mother Jones chart? The green and the blue lines go all the way out to the end, but the red line (representing the average income of the top 1%) appears to stop sometime around 2007. Indeed, you'll notice that several of their charts seem to stop at 2007. I wonder why that could be? The answer is pretty simple if you look at the previous economic downturns; the rich do worse during recessions; their share of the pie suddenly shrinks. No surprise, the class warriors don't want to show that, because it undermines their argument.
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Given the overall trend I hardly think it matters. Is the data available?
 
RandFan said:
I don't claim that unions prevent income gaps. I claim that unions can prevent income gaps. I don't have an absolutist POV as it relates to labor relations. I believe that the best interests of labor is more likely to be achieved with labor unions.
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You brought up the increasing income gap, and tied this to the decline of labor unions.

Now you admit it has nothing to do with unions?
 
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