Why would an intelligent designer use mass extinctions?

I basically agree with much of what you say, but given that the idea of ID is only an idea, and that no real evidence exists, it seems frustratingly futile to speculate on what it might be if it did exist, and doubly futile to imagine how an equally unproven being exhibiting undefinable characteristics might have planned it. Back many years ago when my stepson was a child, he went through a Star Wars phase, and I recall that he pored over things like blueprints of the X-wing fighter, and mechanical maps of the Millennium Falcon. Speculating on why God might have implemented ID seems a bit like that.

I suppose that this kind of thing is why I find myself more and more sidestepping much of philosophy, but still occasionally invoking a form of the Pragmatist maxim: what difference does it make? If we can never even know if a thing actually exists, much less what it does, is there any point analyzing it? Were there enough fire extinguishers on the Death Star?

I find the difference it makes comparable with what how I was before contemplating such things.
I am different. So it makes a difference to me.
Fire extinguishers are useless just hanging on a wall and will not jump up and fight the fire of their own volition.

Now if - as the saying goes - one does not need to contemplate god ideas in order to be a good person, then that is not here nor there. Some do find the need to.

Those who don't would not complain about those who do because essentially if someone is being good due in part to their contemplating ID concepts etc then while the means might be different, the end result is the same.

We are 'brothers'.
 
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1) How are you defining consciousness, and what do you mean by continuation?
2) I'd say it seems more indicative of no ID at all as opposed to a mad invention.
3) Not all creatures that have lived can be said to have experienced either fun or happiness, nor is it clear that any amount of fun and/or happiness at all justifies the addition of cruelty and suffering.
4) Whether or not there is somehow some sort of continuation of consciousness after the body dies seems quite irrelevant unless someone can demonstrate that experiencing suffering is somehow something necessary for some reason after death.

1: Self awareness. Afterlife.
2: I would say something else.
3: Some say life is cruel. Nature does what nature does. What cruelty are you referring to regarding creatures not all who experience fun and happiness?
4: The fact of dying propels my interest in such concepts as afterlife and god ideas. No one knows for certain they will not experience a continuation of life (as consciousness) or if so, what that might be. Those things will be known to the individual upon the individuals death, if indeed it turns out to be the case.
Otherwise it won't matter to you what you did in life. But we have life for now so there is no problem I can see with me being interested in contemplating these concepts.
Of course if no one ever died, the concept of ID could still be contemplated.
 
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1) ...
4) Whether or not there is somehow some sort of continuation of consciousness after the body dies seems quite irrelevant unless someone can demonstrate that experiencing suffering is somehow something necessary for some reason after death.
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I'm sure there are those in Paradise lamenting their unworthiness to be there, as they did in life, and those that rejoice, they always knew they were worthy, at the very least! :)
 
.. Those things will be known to the individual upon the individuals death, if indeed it turns out to be the case.
...
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Nope.
Everything stops. There's nothing after that. Can't be amazed or dismayed, there's no there there anymore to be anything.
 
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Nope.
Everything stops. There's nothing after that. Can't be amazed or dismayed, there's no there there anymore to be anything.

Although I spent most of my life searching for the truth, and in the process had much evidence of survival after death from spiritualist mediums, I am rather hoping in my old age that you are right, and oblivion does not seem like such a bad idea.
 
It's kinda like Pascal's wager....
Nothing is the result of death... to those who have no faith.
A truly compassionate supreme being would not care to have a Paradise filled with the disillusioned. :)
Shurely that guy above all others would recognize the failure of his PR scheme to fill Heaven... :rolleyes:
 
I find the difference it makes comparable with what how I was before contemplating such things.
I am different. So it makes a difference to me.
Fire extinguishers are useless just hanging on a wall and will not jump up and fight the fire of their own volition.

Now if - as the saying goes - one does not need to contemplate god ideas in order to be a good person, then that is not here nor there. Some do find the need to.

Those who don't would not complain about those who do because essentially if someone is being good due in part to their contemplating ID concepts etc then while the means might be different, the end result is the same.

We are 'brothers'.

I don't mean to complain about what you're thinking about, but to note that you appear to discuss seriously questions about which seriousness is misplaced. For example, your comment on fire extinguishers, while obviously true (that they don't jump off the wall and fight fires themselves, well who ever said they might?) strikes me as utterly off the point I was making, which is that there is nothing to be gained by speculating about whether the fictitious account of something that never existed might have included a spurious observation unrelated to the fiction.
 
I don't mean to complain about what you're thinking about, but to note that you appear to discuss seriously questions about which seriousness is misplaced. For example, your comment on fire extinguishers, while obviously true (that they don't jump off the wall and fight fires themselves, well who ever said they might?) strikes me as utterly off the point I was making, which is that there is nothing to be gained by speculating about whether the fictitious account of something that never existed might have included a spurious observation unrelated to the fiction.

Please bruto.

it was in fact you who brought up the subject of fire extinguishes. I was merely taking it to the next level in metaphor. If there are not enough individuals willing to use the fire extinguishes, the fire will continue until there is nothing left to burn.

In relation to the death star - fire extinguishes are impractical in the situation the empire faced because there were no fail safes. It was a death trap waiting to be sprung.

In relation to this our planet, in this day and age we understand better than ever that it is a finite thing.


On the subject of death traps, it is death itself which gives me all the necessary seriousness I need to be addressing the whole concept of ID seriously.

For example, you mentioned your son and his wanting to know the details about something which derived from fiction. What is the point and why the fascination?

Does it matter? Can playtime not be taken seriously? Does it affect my interaction with others in any negative manner which brings suffering or even mild discomfort to the any of them?

Now way beyond the biblical idea of god there are other ideas which are immeasurably vaster.
One such idea is brought into the world (as physical data) by Tom Campbell. His idea is that Consciousness (as the original ID) began spontaneously - just as some claim evolution created consciousness - except that no biological brain was involved but rather something Tom calls 'the void' and from this Consciousness Later to be the ID) was born.
So the ID is basically a new thing which eventually begins to understand its 'self' and also its capabilities.
As it develops/evolves it becomes more adept at creating simulations real enough for it to explore.

One of those now countless simulations is what we call 'the physical universe'.

Now to the question 'why?' which is simply answered with 'why not?' which is then confused with 'why would any sane ID create this and then go into it to experience it (as us)'?
Therefore no answer which satisfies those asking 'why?' equals 'there is no ID' because if there were then something must be 'amiss'.

And truly there are many who take this kind of reasoning just as seriously as I take mine.

Only...I am real fine with my understanding of this process. ID wants to know things. It knows what it is like to have a beginning. But it does not know what it is like to have some kind of conscious instructor at that beginning telling it what to do, how to do it, what it is, what its purpose is etc...

In human form, ID is able to have that experience.
 
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Nope.
Everything stops. There's nothing after that. Can't be amazed or dismayed, there's no there there anymore to be anything.

Originally Posted by Navigator
.. Those things will be known to the individual upon the individuals death, if indeed it turns out to be the case.
 
It's kinda like Pascal's wager....
Nothing is the result of death... to those who have no faith.
A truly compassionate supreme being would not care to have a Paradise filled with the disillusioned. :)
Shurely that guy above all others would recognize the failure of his PR scheme to fill Heaven... :rolleyes:

Perhaps your mistake is you are looking at the wrong 'guy'? see this post for more detail re that possibility.
 
Although I spent most of my life searching for the truth, and in the process had much evidence of survival after death from spiritualist mediums, I am rather hoping in my old age that you are right, and oblivion does not seem like such a bad idea.

Oblivion is a fine idea.

I think those who lived life and at the end had nothing serious to say about the whole thing, are most likely to desire oblivion. It is quite obvious the two go together.

Now if oblivion is the thing which will happen, then it wouldn't matter either way that I wanted oblivion to be the case or that I seriously spent a life time wondering at other possibilities.

The position I would personally be lest comfortable in having to deal with would be if I believed in oblivion only to, upon death find myself still very much alive, in a self conscious manner, albeit in a reality I would not be so accustomed to being in.

Such possibilities need to be deal with as best as possible while opportunity permits the time to do so.
Here and now.

Just in case.
 
Perhaps your mistake is you are looking at the wrong 'guy'? see this post for more detail re that possibility.
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I'd say "be serious" but the murk and smoke and mirrors and just plain off the wall stuff you post is too obtuse to comprehend. Incoherent for a lot of it.
 
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I'd say "be serious" but the murk and smoke and mirrors and just plain off the wall stuff you post is too obtuse to comprehend. Incoherent for a lot of it.

If it was as you say, I would not be in discussion with anyone.

I won't argue that you find this to be the case yourself. But I would argue the problem you have is not something I made for you.
 
Oblivion is a fine idea.

I think those who lived life and at the end had nothing serious to say about the whole thing, are most likely to desire oblivion. It is quite obvious the two go together.

Now if oblivion is the thing which will happen, then it wouldn't matter either way that I wanted oblivion to be the case or that I seriously spent a life time wondering at other possibilities.

The position I would personally be lest comfortable in having to deal with would be if I believed in oblivion only to, upon death find myself still very much alive, in a self conscious manner, albeit in a reality I would not be so accustomed to being in.

Such possibilities need to be deal with as best as possible while opportunity permits the time to do so.
Here and now.

Just in case.

You're going to spend your life worrying about death?

:cry1
 
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Please bruto.

it was in fact you who brought up the subject of fire extinguishes. I was merely taking it to the next level in metaphor. If there are not enough individuals willing to use the fire extinguishes, the fire will continue until there is nothing left to burn.

In relation to the death star - fire extinguishes are impractical in the situation the empire faced because there were no fail safes. It was a death trap waiting to be sprung.

In relation to this our planet, in this day and age we understand better than ever that it is a finite thing.


On the subject of death traps, it is death itself which gives me all the necessary seriousness I need to be addressing the whole concept of ID seriously.

For example, you mentioned your son and his wanting to know the details about something which derived from fiction. What is the point and why the fascination?

Does it matter? Can playtime not be taken seriously? Does it affect my interaction with others in any negative manner which brings suffering or even mild discomfort to the any of them? - -- snipping off the rest for the moment....

Yes, I brought up fire extinguishers (specifically, for those unwilling to zip back and forth through the thread, the question of whether there were enough fire extinguishers on the Death Star), specifically as an example of something the consideration of which so is utterly inane and unworthy of serious discussion because it is so inane, that further discussion outside, perhaps, of the art of fictional narrative, is crazy, and guess what? Further discussion!

I brought up my stepson and his childhood obsession with fictitious trivia because when he was a child he seemed to have some difficulty realizing that the specifications of a fictitious object are also fictitious, but he grew up. Playtime can of course be considered seriously, but the subject you play with is not reality. If you're fantasizing your way into a Star Wars scenario, it's fine to be enthusiastic about it, and to know your way around it, and to imagine all sorts of imaginary details. But it's still fiction. I had no problem with him poring over the books, and playing the computer simulations in which he flew X-wings through outer space and blasted storm troopers.

I would be a little worried if, in a discussion of how the world began, he suggested that in trying to figure out the mysteries of the universe, we consider how we fit in with the plans of the Imperial Emperor.

The fact that someone has thought of something does not make it necessary to add it to the list of things that are worth arguing about.
 
"Aren't you going to feel stupid when you die and find out there's no afterlife!"

-- No atheist, ever
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No one will "find out there's no afterlife"... there's nothing left of any person/ego to "find out" anything.
Dead is dead.
 
God is the perfect being and make no mistakes. He makes mass extinction to erase his mistakes.
 

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