Why we will not be visiting the US in the forseeable future

[Godmode]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1984496,00.html

In a nutshell, the EU has signed an agreement with the us, so that if we visit we are basically allowing them to access our credit card histories, and monitor our email (coming and going!) forever, and whenever they wish. Plus, we get to give them our fingerprints. No thanks, Bush.

I gave my Mom (who is in the US) the bad news today, she was very supportive, but disapointed of course.


For a long time I have dreaded visiting the US because I can't stand the intimidation at airports, this is the icing on the cake. And P.S. USA, it is possable to be secure and POLITE. They do it all over Europe. Only in the US do I feel afraid to ask simple questions, made to feel unamerican and like a criminal, and generally unwelcome... and I AM NOT A SECURITY RISK. You can rest assured anyone who is will easily find away around your stupid rules and regulations. The only people hurt by this are the law abiding ones.

I miss the America I used to know... land of the free and home of the brave.

 

[El Greco]

Well... one can't be both free and brave for a long time.

 

[Katana]

I'm wondering how the American government would react if the EU started doing the same to us.

 

[Darth Rotor]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1984496,00.html

In a nutshell, the EU has signed an agreement with the us, so that if we visit we are basically allowing them to access our credit card histories, and monitor our email (coming and going!) forever, and whenever they wish. Plus, we get to give them our fingerprints. No thanks, Bush.

I gave my Mom (who is in the US) the bad news today, she was very supportive, but disapointed of course.


For a long time I have dreaded visiting the US because I can't stand the intimidation at airports, this is the icing on the cake. And P.S. USA, it is possable to be secure and POLITE. They do it all over Europe. Only in the US do I feel afraid to ask simple questions, made to feel unamerican and like a criminal, and generally unwelcome... and I AM NOT A SECURITY RISK. You can rest assured anyone who is will easily find away around your stupid rules and regulations. The only people hurt by this are the law abiding ones.

I miss the America I used to know... land of the free and home of the brave.

That's funny. My experiences in the 1980's in Italian and Turkish airports, where armed guards with machine pistols were commonplace, didn't make me stop traveling in Europe. You know what go me to cancel my European vacation plans a few years ago, specifically France? America bashing. We'd been to France in the 90's, but for too short a time, and were lining up a trip for 10 days. This was in 2002. By the time I had to pay for tickets, or not, I cancelled the trip. It's OK.

I'll spend my travel dollars at home until the security leaches of Europe can put a civil tongue in it.

This "civility" thing works both ways, which is a pity.

The world got meaner, so Osama wins.

DR

 

[KingMerv00]

So you won't visit your mother because you are afraid that some pencilneck could (but almost certainly won't) look into your personal history?

Kinda sad.

 

[Godmode]

That's funny. My experiences in the 1980's in Italian and Turkish airports, where armed guards with machine pistols were commonplace, didn't make me stop traveling in Europe. You know what go me to cancel my European vacation plans a few years ago, specifically France? America bashing. We'd been to France in the 90's, but for too short a time, and were lining up a trip for 10 days. This was in 2002. By the time I had to pay for tickets, or not, I cancelled the trip. It's OK.

I'll spend my travel dollars at home until the security leaches of Europe can put a civil tongue in it.

This "civility" thing works both ways, which is a pity.

The world got meaner, so Osama wins.

DR

I'm American, and I'm certainly NOT an America basher (if that's what you're implying...if not, disregard). I've never felt any negativity towards me at airports in Europe, like I have in the US. Obviously there are a few good and bad everywhere, but intimidation is NOT POLICY in European airports, security or no. I love America, I am not pleased with the current policies in place. It's as simple as that. I very much hope then in a couple of years things will start to look better. I don't know if that will happen, but I certainly don't like the idea of never going to visit home again. On the other hand, I have no intention of volentarily handing over my civil rights to privacy either. Nor do I accept that I am guilty until proven innocent. Frankly, I resent the way many Americans are not complaining about what is happening. And by complaining, I mean openly, not behind closed doors.

Please don't think I'm saying Europe is perfect. It's not. In fact, scary things are happening all over the world. But then America is supposed to be the example for democracy...it's supposed to be the best country in the world. That's what I was raised to believe, and it's been a bitter pill to swallow to realize nothing could be the furthest from the truth.

I'm just frustrated and scared at things I see happening. I'm only human after all...

 

[Cylinder]

That's funny. My experiences in the 1980's in Italian and Turkish airports, where armed guards with machine pistols were commonplace, didn't make me stop traveling in Europe.

Yea - I was stupid enough to fly into Heathrow in the early 90s with a Gameboy stuffed into my luggage. That on got me pulled into the screening room.

BTW, thanks for staying home Godmode - you know, gloabl warming and all. Maybe you should fill the newly found-time with an interest in domestic politics. You guys still have that, right?

Oh yea - by the way - what freedom do you enjoy in the UK that we don't enjoy here. Are you claiming that the British authorities don't screen airline passengers in a similar manner?

 

[Godmode]

So you won't visit your mother because you are afraid that some pencilneck could (but almost certainly won't) look into your personal history?

Kinda sad.

It's not just me, but also my husband, who isn't American that I have to think of. I'm not so naive as to believe they couldn't get into my email and financial transactions if they wanted... but I'm not just going to bend over and make it easy for them. I'm not going to say, "It's fine," because it's NOT. And I'm certainly not going to subject my husband to being treated like a criminal by forcing him to submit to fingerprints. He doesn't feel comfortable with it, and neither do I.

 

[BPSCG]

*shrug*

Total strangers in banks you've never done business with know your credit history, you give your credit card to the bored 17-year-old cashier with a safety pin through her nose without a second thought and you're worried the FBI might think you're Osama bin Laden because your credit card and fingerprints match his?

I love this, "We need to find and stop the terrorists but we have to do it without the government knowing anything personal about anyone" mentality. How do you propose we identify them? Have some mystic observe their auras?

 

[Merko]

That's funny. My experiences in the 1980's in Italian and Turkish airports, where armed guards with machine pistols were commonplace, didn't make me stop traveling in Europe.

They had these types around in Italy again last year at least. Didn't exactly make me feel more secure. They looked friendly though, well, as friendly as one can look with a big machine gun..

 

[drkitten]

Oh yea - by the way - what freedom do you enjoy in the UK that we don't enjoy here. Are you claiming that the British authorities don't screen airline passengers in a similar manner?

Last time I travelled to the EU, the authorities did not fingerprint me upon arrival, nor was I required to give them credit card details or an email address. My passport was sufficient.

So, yeah, I think it's fair to say that the British authorities don't screen airline passengers in a similar manner.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Nor do I accept that I am guilty until proven innocent. Frankly, I resent the way many Americans are not complaining about what is happening.

Nor me, which is why I don't fly anymore unless my boss makes me for the job. The Illusion of security game got old, but it made me mad when I was on my way back from the sandbox. I got extra special screening on my ticket. I had been briefed that I was able to pass on that if on official travel. Nope. Even when I presented my orders and my ID card, I got the harassment package. So, I offered some well chosen words of contempt, and demanded to see the next level up. I had another set of words in an office with a supervisor. When I got home, the letter sent to both of my Senators and a Congressman came back with utter crap, my personal boycott commenced.

The airlines in the US don't want my money, obviously, and my legislature isn't interested in its citizens more than it is interested in not appearing to be a lot of things.

DR

 

[drkitten]

I love this, "We need to find and stop the terrorists but we have to do it without the government knowing anything personal about anyone" mentality. How do you propose we identify them?

How about by doing some real police work? You know, by identifying particular suspects, talking to witnesses, and collecting evidence?

If my house were burglarized, I wouldn't expect the local police department to "investigate" it by simply and blindly fingerprinting everyone who visits the local supermarket in the forlorn hope that one of the thousands of customers might have a match. I would consider that to be gross incompetence.

But apparently if they simply and blindly fingerprint everyone at the local airport, that somehow becomes an effective technique for criminal investigation.

 

[Katana]

The fingerprinting plan doesn't bother me if and only if it is accurate. False positives could be devastating, and the link in the OP said that 11 out of 15 machines tested in one study failed to identify fake fingerprints stuck on the fingers. I can only hope that the government has chosen one of the 4 that did.

I'm conflicted about the government having access to credit card information. I can think of ways that it might be useful, but I don't like it. I would not accept the government having free access to my e-mail, though. That's going a bit far. Would it keep me from visiting a country? Probably not. I would simply set up a dumby e-mail at Yahoo or the like for ticket purchases.

 

[Dr Adequate]

I'll spend my travel dollars at home until the security leaches of Europe can put a civil tongue in it.

And you are also, I take it, boycotting French goods, since that looks to me like a vintage American whine.

Can you explain in more detail:

(1) What is a "security leach"?

(2) What exactly did the French say that you found so distressingly uncivil?

 

[fuelair]

Nor me, which is why I don't fly anymore unless my boss makes me for the job. The Illusion of security game got old, but it made me mad when I was on my way back from the sandbox. I got extra special screening on my ticket. I had been briefed that I was able to pass on that if on official travel. Nope. Even when I presented my orders and my ID card, I got the harassment package. So, I offered some well chosen words of contempt, and demanded to see the next level up. I had another set of words in an office with a supervisor. When I got home, the letter sent to both of my Senators and a Congressman came back with utter crap, my personal boycott commenced.

The airlines in the US don't want my money, obviously, and my legislature isn't interested in its citizens more than it is interested in not appearing to be a lot of things.

DR

If I can't drive or train, I don't need to go. - Been that way since the silliness started. And I haven't flown in six and a fraction years and don't see it happening in the forseeable future. Not worth the hassles.

 

[Darth Rotor]

And you are also, I take it, boycotting French goods, since that looks to me like a vintage American whine.

Nope, I drink the occasional bottle of French wine, or get some cheese at the local French deli. The travel is where I drew the line. (That's big money.)

(1) What is a "security leach"?

Any European nation in NATO who plays "in but out," or who has a laughable capability. France fits the first, not the second. FFS, even the Spanish are in but in.

(2) What exactly did the French say that you found so distressingly uncivil?

Besides being a bunch of c***s (at the political level) when I worked NATO, the usual euro sneer that one got used to over the years turned a bit uglier after the Afghanistan game was on, and the Iraq stuff began to get kicked around. (Recall that at the time, there was some question on the WMD, that breaking open the Iraqi egg finally settled. Joy. ) Remember to put my decision into its proper context: 2002. The sanctions matter had been a pisser from the French since the mid 1990's. It rose yet again as prelude to even more fun and games in Iraq. My decision was made months before that idiotic freedom fries nonsense.

Follow the money, Doc. People in the US are not the only ones who have, or had, an interest in the Iraqi oil industry.

Will I ever go to France again? Maybe, but I've got a lot of America I'd like to see before the Interior department rapes the land in its entirety, so France can bloody well wait for a return visit, thanks very much.

DR

 

[shemp]

*shrug*

Total strangers in banks you've never done business with know your credit history, you give your credit card to the bored 17-year-old cashier with a safety pin through her nose without a second thought and you're worried the FBI might think you're Osama bin Laden because your credit card and fingerprints match his?

I love this, "We need to find and stop the terrorists but we have to do it without the government knowing anything personal about anyone" mentality. How do you propose we identify them? Have some mystic observe their auras?

Not a bad idea. While they're at it, maybe the remote viewing crowd can find bin Laden?

 

[Dr Adequate]

Any European nation in NATO who plays "in but out," or who has a laughable capability. France fits the first, not the second. FFS, even the Spanish are in but in.

I'm still not following you

Besides being a bunch of c***s (at the political level) when I worked NATO, the usual euro sneer that one got used to over the years turned a bit uglier after the Afghanistan game was on, and the Iraq stuff began to get kicked around. (Recall that at the time, there was some question on the WMD, that breaking open the Iraqi egg finally settled. Joy. ) The sanctions matter had been a pisser from the French since the mid 1990's. It rose yet again as prelude to even more fun and games in Iraq. My decision was made months before that idiotic freedom fries nonsense.

So ... nothing in particular comes to mind?

Follow the money, Doc. People in the US are not the only ones who have, or had, and interest in the Iraqi oil industry.

That was something of a non sequitur.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I'm still not following you

I liked France, and the French, a lot better before I ever worked in NATO. The trip to France did a lot to heal the antipathy, though, near the end of my NATO tour. I won't say I feel as strongly now as I did then, but I don't see any reason to change my travel plans any time soon, given my general antipathy to travel, and the list of places I'd rather go than France far exceeding my discretionary income at this point in time.

If you didn't get my ref to the oil deals, then I guess you and I paid attention to different things between 1995 and 2003. Does "$14 billion" ring a bell?

At this point, it's OBE.

DR