Why vegans are simply better people

[RandFan]

I think this is very apt, and shows why many vegans and animal rights activists compare our treatment of meat animals to slavery- there is a strong feeling of fighting an immoral legal system, and an indifferent society.
To a point, I agree with them- I find many of the practices in place since industrialization of the meat industry to be immoral (not to mention the negative effects of this system for people- eg. hormones in meat and milk, environmental issues, etc.) and I think that the humane treatment of animals in our care is something very much worth fighting for.

Unfortunately, what I find is that the rhetoric being used by many in the animal rights movement to be so far removed from reality, or at least the reality I live in, that I find it counterproductive- people who might otherwise be sympathetic are either disgusted or unmoved by the stances taken by organizations like PETA, that too many are inclined to throw out the whole argument and label all people fighting for animal welfare as nuts. The ideas espoused by PETA are too far removed from what they should IMO stand for- that is the "ethical treatment of animals"- and instead they have become a scape goat for people who don't want to take the time to look into changing their own habits. After all,I mean, if you're going to be labeled as evil for eating meat, you might as well eat the stuff that costs less, right?

You'll see a similar thing in many emotionally charged issues- look at feminism, for example, where the extremist views of some who called themselves feminists resulted in many who would otherwise be for the movement to refrain from associating themselves with the word, or the concept of feminism all together. (In my experience, as a respondent at a crisis center, I heard many woman say they did not want to complain about things like sexual harassment because they didn't want to be "one of those" women. I have met few woman who openly call themselves feminists, not because they disagree with the general idea that women have equal rights, but because they don't want to be part of a movement that holds so many with such extreme views.)

I would agree. Yes.

 

[reverebison]

http://vimeo.com/28304606

The China Study, the largest study on human nutrition ever conducted in the history of the world comes to the conclusion that meat, dairy, oil, are the very cause of cardiovascular disease.

For those really ignorant individuals out there who care about their own health and more importantly the health of those you love like your spouse and children....watch this link. You don't even need to read...its like watching TV on your couch. the kind of thing you are good at. watch it

http://vimeo.com/28304606

 

[Paulhoff]

I wonder what plants have to say about this.................

That's right, they can't, isn't that a shame.

Paul

 

[myowninvention]

[

http://vimeo.com/28304606

The China Study, the largest study on human nutrition ever conducted in the history of the world comes to the conclusion that meat, dairy, oil, are the very cause of cardiovascular disease.

For those really ignorant individuals out there who care about their own health and more importantly the health of those you love like your spouse and children....watch this link. You don't even need to read...its like watching TV on your couch. the kind of thing you are good at. watch it

http://vimeo.com/28304606

Can you try this post again, this time without the needless condescension? You might find people more willing to listen to you if you don't go out of your way to imply that they are lazy and illiterate.

ETA: I have to admit I was curious about what exactly "The China Study" is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study_(book)
The Wiki- It's been well received it would appear, but I find myself with some disagreements.

http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/
This blog provides an excellent breakdown of the claims, as well as a some examples of the problems found with the study

 

[epepke]

Right. But if you try to convince me, expect an argument.

Also, if someone says "I disagree with you, and here's why I think you should change your diet", that's one thing. "You eat live a caveman" (I've been told this before), I take issue with. And the more extreme cases, also.

Where are you going to find a live caveman to eat? Or even canned?

 

[RandFan]

For those really ignorant individuals out there who care about their own health and more importantly the health of those you love like your spouse and children....watch this link. You don't even need to read...its like watching TV on your couch. the kind of thing you are good at. watch it.

Oh yeah, THAT'S going to change everyone's mind.

 

[lionking]

[

Can you try this post again, this time without the needless condescension? You might find people more willing to listen to you if you don't go out of your way to imply that they are lazy and illiterate.

I doubt that's possible. Calling people ignorant is a sure way to get people to take notice.

 

[Agatha]

http://vimeo.com/28304606

The China Study, the largest study on human nutrition ever conducted in the history of the world comes to the conclusion that meat, dairy, oil, are the very cause of cardiovascular disease.

For those really ignorant individuals out there who care about their own health and more importantly the health of those you love like your spouse and children....watch this link. You don't even need to read...its like watching TV on your couch. the kind of thing you are good at. watch it

http://vimeo.com/28304606

Why do you feel the need to be so unpleasant to others? Are you missing some important nutrients, perhaps?

 

[dafydd]

http://vimeo.com/28304606

The China Study, the largest study on human nutrition ever conducted in the history of the world comes to the conclusion that meat, dairy, oil, are the very cause of cardiovascular disease.

For those really ignorant individuals out there who care about their own health and more importantly the health of those you love like your spouse and children....watch this link. You don't even need to read...its like watching TV on your couch. the kind of thing you are good at. watch it

http://vimeo.com/28304606

How to make friends and influence people.

 

[dafydd]

http://vimeo.com/28304606

The China Study, the largest study on human nutrition ever conducted in the history of the world comes to the conclusion that meat, dairy, oil, are the very cause of cardiovascular disease.

For those really ignorant individuals out there who care about their own health and more importantly the health of those you love like your spouse and children....watch this link. You don't even need to read...its like watching TV on your couch. the kind of thing you are good at. watch it

http://vimeo.com/28304606

And you're going to live forever? At least when I die the doctors will be able to fill in the cause of death space on my death certificate. It will be so embarrassing for you when they have to leave it blank.

 

[qayak]

Perhaps I'm missing something but, [opinion alert] I want to say that I completely agree that laws are the outgrowth of the moral zeitgeist. Given that legal philosophers and justice professors make that very claim I can't see anyway around that. (Harvard University's Justice With Michael Sandel). There was a time when slavery was legal and the South felt that the North was trying to push their morals onto them (the south). Segregation. Women's right to vote. Miscegenation laws. What was the basis behind the call for change? Wasn't it moral indignation?
Now, I don't think eating animals is the same as slavery, segregation, women's rights, etc. But let me own that word, "equate", let's use it but point out that I'm drawing a comparison and that comparison is this, there was a time when one group of people felt that slavery should be legal and another didn't. Same here. There are two groups. That's the only "equating" that I'm doing. I'm not trying to say that I (RandFan, meat eater) have the morals of a slave owner.

Since morality isn't objective, religiously or scientifically, who is to say that our views are absolute, or, that some day our morals will be seen by the majority as immoral (not that future popularity would make our current morals wrong)?

I think it fair to grant that vegans have an *ethic and there is nothing untoward behind trying to influence others to agree with their ethic. I think that is the very basis for Hegel's dialectic and free speech, right?

*One that, in the least, seeks to reduce suffering. At least, that's my opinion.

I think this is very apt, and shows why many vegans and animal rights activists compare our treatment of meat animals to slavery- there is a strong feeling of fighting an immoral legal system, and an indifferent society.To a point, I agree with them- I find many of the practices in place since industrialization of the meat industry to be immoral (not to mention the negative effects of this system for people- eg. hormones in meat and milk, environmental issues, etc.) and I think that the humane treatment of animals in our care is something very much worth fighting for.

Unfortunately, what I find is that the rhetoric being used by many in the animal rights movement to be so far removed from reality, or at least the reality I live in, that I find it counterproductive- people who might otherwise be sympathetic are either disgusted or unmoved by the stances taken by organizations like PETA, that too many are inclined to throw out the whole argument and label all people fighting for animal welfare as nuts. The ideas espoused by PETA are too far removed from what they should IMO stand for- that is the "ethical treatment of animals"- and instead they have become a scape goat for people who don't want to take the time to look into changing their own habits. After all,I mean, if you're going to be labeled as evil for eating meat, you might as well eat the stuff that costs less, right?

You'll see a similar thing in many emotionally charged issues- look at feminism, for example, where the extremist views of some who called themselves feminists resulted in many who would otherwise be for the movement to refrain from associating themselves with the word, or the concept of feminism all together. (In my experience, as a respondent at a crisis center, I heard many woman say they did not want to complain about things like sexual harassment because they didn't want to be "one of those" women. I have met few woman who openly call themselves feminists, not because they disagree with the general idea that women have equal rights, but because they don't want to be part of a movement that holds so many with such extreme views.)

I think that the essential difference is that with slavery, women's rights, etc. can be directly equated to rights that already existed for those lucky enough to have them. In other words, the logic is sound and an easy leap for most. If you give rights to white males, you should also give rights to white females and black males and black females, etc. All are human, all should have the rights. It doesn't take a lot of "thinking outside the box" to get that. Especially in light of the wording of the U.S. Constitution.

Extending rights to animals doesn't equate and you have to find other ways to make the argument work. To a degree you can but going as far as a lot of people have is beyond the pale.

I don't think it is good enough to say: "We ended slavery so we shouldn't eat animals," or "Women can vote so lab rats should be liberated."

 

[Dessi]

Is everyone else here done and ready to let this thread die a dignified death? I am.

Spent waaaaaay too much time here instead of being productive at work. When I have to work on Sunday to make up the lost time I spent talking to people on internet forums, its time to call it quits.

Enjoy my veggie recipes.

 

[qayak]

Is everyone else here done and ready to let this thread die a dignified death? I am.

Spent waaaaaay too much time here instead of being productive at work. When I have to work on Sunday to make up the lost time I spent talking to people on internet forums, its time to call it quits.

Enjoy my veggie recipes.

Then leave. The conversation seems to have gotten way beyond your reactionary rhetoric anyway.

Or don't you think everyone should has the right to make up their own minds about when they want to drop the discussion?

 

[dafydd]

Stress and adrenaline do far more damage to the blood vessels than eating meat.

http://tuberose.com/Adrenal_Glands.html

 

[dafydd]

Is everyone else here done and ready to let this thread die a dignified death? I am.

Spent waaaaaay too much time here instead of being productive at work. When I have to work on Sunday to make up the lost time I spent talking to people on internet forums, its time to call it quits.

Enjoy my veggie recipes.

Enjoy these wild boar recipes. The tastiest meat on Earth

http://www.gourmetfly.com/Cookingwildboar.html

 

[Agatha]

http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/
This blog provides an excellent breakdown of the claims, as well as a some examples of the problems found with the study

Thanks for posting the link to this. Too much maths for me to cope with at this time of night, but I will certainly be revisiting it tomorrow. On the face of it certainly seems to counter some of reverebison's claims.

 

[ConspiRaider]

Is everyone else here done and ready to let this thread die a dignified death? I am.

Spent waaaaaay too much time here instead of being productive at work. When I have to work on Sunday to make up the lost time I spent talking to people on internet forums, its time to call it quits.

Enjoy my veggie recipes.

I might get in a few more licks, Big D.

You created some interesting posts here. Much disagreement from me in many areas concerning this subject matter - but you're certainly not shy about the written word. As a writer - good on you. I don't have to suggest you stick with it and watch yourself improving because you'll do that anyway.

And just because I'm a guy it should be legal for me to henna my hair. Once I find out the True Meaning of henna I'm dialing up a barrister and sue the Hennites.

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

Rights are irretrievably linked to responsibilities, so what responsibilities would animals take on along with the rights we would extend to them? And how are they agreeing to these rights and responsibilities?

 

[RandFan]

Rights are irretrievably linked to responsibilities, so what responsibilities would animals take on along with the rights we would extend to them? And how are they agreeing to these rights and responsibilities?

I very much think moral agency important. But then the question arises, how does an infant agree to responsibilities? I have my own thoughts on the subject but I'm curious how others would reconcile it.

 

[Cain]

Rights are irretrievably linked to responsibilities, so what responsibilities would animals take on along with the rights we would extend to them? And how are they agreeing to these rights and responsibilities?

This is a line that gets repeated merely because it sounds pleasant to the ear. Investigate it for sixty seconds and you might reach another conclusion (hint: what are the responsibilities of babies? To look adorable?). As Peter Parker says, with power comes responsibility.

There's a long-standing distinction made between moral agents and moral patients. Moral patients have "basic" rights (e.g., animal cruelty laws). Moral agents -- because of their awareness and capacity for self-examination -- have a greater range of rights (e.g., the right to vote). Moral agents can be held accountable for actions that moral patients cannot (e.g., pooping at the dinner table). Not surprisingly, this is why even people who advocate something like the death penalty think that it should be taken off the table for juveniles and/or the mentally incapacitated. And with that your sixty seconds are up.