Why vegans are simply better people

[Dessi]

Plenty of feeling, no doubt, but how much reason?

An average ant has two and one-half times as many neurons as an average lobster. I have yet to meet a vegan who didn't go primate-fertilizer and insect-intercourse over the process of boiling a lobster, or even the "humane" way of heating it slowly until it suffocates. Perhaps you'll be the first.

Lobsters probably react to painful stimuli, but do they have the corresponding private experience of suffering? I'm leaning toward no, but I seriously don't know the answer the question and I'm happy to be corrected.

To compensate for my lack of stereotypical veganness, I support the ALF and hope they start more fires. (Its a joke, relax)

 

[ConspiRaider]

...I'm fine with it provided this is not the sort of thing that distresses hens. I'm guessing it doesn't, but WTF do I know about hens? Similarly I have no problem drinking a happy cow's milk, and when said cow keels over, I have no problem converting her hide into a cool motorcycle jacket. But it has to be a cool motorcycle jacket.

Now returning to my question -- the one you didn't answer -- do you want to hurl your above charges at omnivores who support laws Species A cruelty laws, but not Species P cruelty laws. They're treating organisms differently! They're saying the government, using your tax dollars, should prosecute people for torturing dogs, but not prosecute people for torturing carrots. Isn't that crazy?

All righty, Cain, well, you've provided some interesting, honest answers and I do appreciate it. Not going to go through them point by point because eventually that progresses into tedium, repetition. Who needs it?

Very sensible answer to the hen question in my opinion, and I'm in agreement. Same with the cow/milk/jacket scenario.

On the prosecution of people torturing dogs versus carrots question: We humans can be considered subjective about this. It's a limitation. Yes - we rip carrots out of the ground and feed them into a Veg-O-Slicer, or Carrot-Juicer. Is that torturous to the carrot? I have no idea. I'm limited that way in my moralistic decisiveness, as I'm sure most everyone is.

Don't know what it's like to be alive as a plant when one day - that plant senses vibrations of chain saws and wood chippers and other contrivances as itself and its habitat gets pulverized, destroyed forever - so a big giant skyscraper can be erected. Haven't a clue as to what goes on inside that plant and am not really going to obsess about it. It could be beyond awful. I simply don't know. Ignorance is bliss? Perhaps if we knew, we'd have anti-vegan demonstrators insisting we become plantlike?

We have a bias towards dogs because there are things about them we think we understand. Hard for us to empathize with plants - not the case with doggies. Again - a large human limitation, and we've got scores of them. Nevertheless, we prosecute dog torturers because of that bias, and because we can recognize that a dog torturer isn't doing it to provide a basic common need for other humans or life forms. He or she is doing it for reasons we consider negative, harmful. We have referents as a guide, about dogs. Yet we're much more ignorant about plants and their lives - therefore more reckless and destructive in treatment of plants.

Is it possible that all of us are beyond the pale of immorality in our treatment of plants? And that the only thing shielding us from acknowledging such is our vast - perhaps wanton - ignorance of the nature of plants? Yes, it's possible, in my opinion. Which circles around to my objection of vegans tossing around the term 'moral' in a rather swashbuckling manner towards the vast majority of humans. That's all of us who consume some form of animal protein or animal byproducts, such as eggs and milk - or hides. I believe it's a tremendous overstep for vegans to ever consider themselves morally superior to non-vegans.

 

[Temporal Renegade]

All this talk's making me hungry...

Let's see...Italian? Chinese?

 

[citizenzen]

Dessi has repeatedly said in one way or another that we shouldn't treat animals in a way we wouldn't treat humans.

I may be wrong, but I don't think that's what she's saying. The fact is we treat everybody differently, humans, animals, whatever. What Dessi is advocating for isn't treatment per se, but regard. We should regard and respect animals with the same consideration that we regard human beings. Once we see animals in that light, appropriate treatment follows. It will be different from how humans are treated, but it will be as loving, as compassionate, as respectful. That's what I think she means.

 

[epepke]

Lobsters probably react to painful stimuli, but do they have the corresponding private experience of suffering? I'm leaning toward no, but I seriously don't know the answer the question and I'm happy to be corrected.

I really don't know, since I cannot remember having been a lobster. I'm leaning toward no, too.

I think it's a fairly important issue, not primarily for lobsters, but for shrimp and crayfish. I wasn't able to find neuron counts for them, but I'm guessing that crayfish are about like lobsters and that shrimp, if anything, are simpler.

Another argument given for a vegan diet is environmental sustainability, but farming isn't all that great either. Swamps are better. A swamp can produce a lot of good protein, but almost all of it is in the form of shrimp and crayfish. Sure, it is possible to overfish a swamp, but they seem to do a lot better than vegetable farming, let alone farming for cattle. The tricks seem to be the high water content, the depth of the swamp, and the extreme biodiversity. Plus, swamps have the property that they can process untreated sewage naturally. They can also produce algae, which kick the shiny white buttocks of every agricultural source of biofuels.

Yet still people drain swamps for farmland.

 

[BravesFan]

Ya know, the more I read all of this stuff and consider it.... The more I come to the conclusion that humans are really really stupid.

We are the only species on the planet who would change our DIET due to some delusional ideas about the treatment of our food....... No other species would ever do this. The ability to read ,write and have debates not withstanding, it's diet..... It's the fundamental base of our existence. Yet , the more technological we get and the more "developed" we become, the more often we will do strange things like this.

Now , don't get me wrong, it's your right to do whatever you want, but it's just such a remarkable concept to me. Having such a strong opinion that one would change something like their diet.

 

[BravesFan]

I really don't know, since I cannot remember having been a lobster. I'm leaning toward no, too.

I think it's a fairly important issue, not primarily for lobsters, but for shrimp and crayfish. I wasn't able to find neuron counts for them, but I'm guessing that crayfish are about like lobsters and that shrimp, if anything, are simpler.

Another argument given for a vegan diet is environmental sustainability, but farming isn't all that great either. Swamps are better. A swamp can produce a lot of good protein, but almost all of it is in the form of shrimp and crayfish. Sure, it is possible to overfish a swamp, but they seem to do a lot better than vegetable farming, let alone farming for cattle. The tricks seem to be the high water content, the depth of the swamp, and the extreme biodiversity. Plus, swamps have the property that they can process untreated sewage naturally. They can also produce algae, which kick the shiny white buttocks of every agricultural source of biofuels.

Yet still people drain swamps for farmland.

I live in bayou country, and I can tell you, I could take 200 people, disappear in the swamp and never need a grocery store again. If I could find a reasonably high spot to build a house! lol!! There's tons of bio-diversity in the swamps. Lots of proteins and lots of edible plants too. The swamp IS a grocery store.

Well, aside from cheese, and bacon... can't get that there without branging some livestock... Crap , it doesn't work. My bacon slavery would not allow it!

 

[citizenzen]

Yet still people drain swamps for farmland.

And I'll bet most all of those people draining those swamps weren't vegans.

You seem to overlook that meat-eaters create far more demand for vegetables, fruits, nuts and grains than vegans do.

According to wikipedia about 1% of Americans identified themselves as vegans. Those drained swamps are more a product of the 99% than they are of the one.

Just how many veggies do you imagine vegans eat each meal?

 

[sgtbaker]

Just how many veggies do you imagine vegans eat each meal?

The OPer claims he/she and his/her entire family eat all day, every day. Someone's got to keep the food on the shelf.

 

[Unabogie]

And your point is? It´s exactly that because I can. It doens´t however affect my morality as person. Like I said, you don´t know nor are you important in my life (well, just the fact that you come as I said above, self righteous). I don´t need to validate myself in front of an anonymous person that is unimportant, but the fact that I choose to eat meat because I like it, is irrelevant. You of course know that Hitler was a vegetarian, right? I assume that has no impact on his morality.

You can have you impotent posts at me, and try to sound as pretentious as you want, but the fact is you can´t stop me, and probably is what tear some of you "preachers" inside. You´re powerless to stop me and you know it.

Why do you consider discussing the topic of the thread to be "preaching"? Isn't the whole point of the thread (at least once we got past the original troll) about the reasons one might stop killing animals for food? If that makes you so upset, then I guess it's hit a nerve. But I'm not the one getting emotional here.

 

[qayak]

Another argument given for a vegan diet is environmental sustainability, but farming isn't all that great either. Swamps are better. A swamp can produce a lot of good protein, but almost all of it is in the form of shrimp and crayfish. Sure, it is possible to overfish a swamp, but they seem to do a lot better than vegetable farming, let alone farming for cattle. The tricks seem to be the high water content, the depth of the swamp, and the extreme biodiversity. Plus, swamps have the property that they can process untreated sewage naturally. They can also produce algae, which kick the shiny white buttocks of every agricultural source of biofuels.

Yet still people drain swamps for farmland.

Actually, this isn't right. Not the swamp part but the farming part.

Most farmland is used to grow food crops for livestock. It is a law of physics that growing food to feed to livestock and then eating the animals as food is a very inefficient system.

A more efficient system is to grow more food to feed directly to humans on the land now used for feeding cattle.

 

[Unabogie]

Who is most of us?

Oh? You don't agree with the premise that you'd rather not harm an animal than harm one? In my premise, there's no reason to harm the animal, so you're saying you'd harm one just because?

Only thousands ? Not much of a data set, or a very good argument that omnivores should give up meat.

Forgive me. I actually don't know how many people have ever gone vegan, so I guessed low so as not to be accused of exaggerating. Little did I know I'd walked into your trap.

And once again, we have a vegan claiming to be morally superior to meat eaters..

Where did I do that aside from my earlier joke?

Are you morally superior in all other areas of your life ?

Ad hominem attack noted.

 

[sgtbaker]

This is a serious question and I hope it's not taken as some dig at your choices. Do vegans actually like or enjoy the food you eat?

 

[Unabogie]

Nope, nope aaannnd nope....

We need animal proteins to survive and be healthy. We are designed to eat and digest animal proteins (probably not in the amount we shove down our pieholes but that's an argument over price not over content).

You are going to have to show your work on this one. We do not need animal proteins to survive or to be healthy. You're talking to a group of healthy people who are not eating animals and still somehow manage to have the energy to type on this forum, even in our emaciated state. Doesn't that call into question your facts?

BTW, Google "vegan athletes" and you'll find several professional athletes who don't eat animals or animal products.

 

[Unabogie]

This is a serious question and I hope it's not taken as some dig at your choices. Do vegans actually like or enjoy the food you eat?

Absolutely! Vegan food is delicious. The problem is that people are so used to meat centric food that they have a hard time getting started with vegan cooking. Many things could be vegan with slight substitutions, but otherwise are exactly like non vegan versions. Mashed potatoes and gravy. Fried rice. Noodles in spicy ginger peanut sauce. Also there are certainly lots of amazing restaurants that do high end vegan cuisine. Millennium in San Francisco is just great.

Shameless plug: I know this author, and her latest book is a perfect "gateway" intro to vegan cooking.

http://www.amazon.com/Vegan-Diner-Classic-Comfort-Food/dp/0762437847

 

[RandFan]

This is a serious question and I hope it's not taken as some dig at your choices. Do vegans actually like or enjoy the food you eat?

I tried it for a few months. My supervisor at work was vegan. A conservative who was vegan for health reasons. She convinced me to try. She took me to some restaurants and prepared for me some lunches. I didn't like the food. Now, that doesn't mean that I couldn't learn to like it. Nor does my dislike translate into morality.

Recently I've noticed a trend, some feel that the best strategy to move us forward is to acknowledge the cultural aspect of tastes. Many people raised on an American diet of meat and potatoes just are not likely going to enjoy Balut, Lutefisk or many other international delicacies. However, many people who havent tried it will and as we increase the number of people who do eat a Vegan diet the greater number of people in subsequent generations will.

Some vegans I know would be happy if people who are not going to switch, like Dawkins, at least acknowledge the environmental and ethical problems of eating animals. That could accelerate the trend.

Again, I don't speak for vegans. You can chalk this up to hearsay.

 

[citizenzen]

This is a serious question and I hope it's not taken as some dig at your choices. Do vegans actually like or enjoy the food you eat?

It may be a bit of a leap ... but would you ask men who support feminism and advocate respect for women if they enjoy sex?

 

[Unabogie]

I tried it for a few months. My supervisor at work was vegan. A conservative who was vegan for health reasons. She convinced me to try. She took me to some restaurants and prepared for me some lunches. I didn't like the food. Now, that doesn't mean that I couldn't learn to like it. Nor does my dislike translate into morality.

Recently I've noticed a trend, some feel that the best strategy to move us forward is to acknowledge the cultural aspect of tastes. Many people raised on an American diet of meat and potatoes just are not likely going to enjoy Balut, Lutefisk or many other international delicacies. However, many people who havent tried it will and as we increase the number of people who do eat a Vegan diet the greater number of people in subsequent generations will.

Some vegans I know would be happy if people who are not going to switch, like Dawkins, at least acknowledge the environmental and ethical problems of eating animals. That could accelerate the trend.

Again, I don't speak for vegans. You can chalk this up to hearsay.

I can only speak for myself. I went veg in 2001, so it's been almost 11 years. My experience is that your tastebuds change when you start eating differently. What used to be a craving for cheese in now a craving for nut cheeses. What used to be a craving for meat is now a craving for seitan or tofu. Now, when I smell cooking meat it doesn't smell like I remember it smelling - like food - it now smells kind of rancid. I think your brain rewires. I know lots of vegans who've raised their kids vegan, so I'd love to ask the kids when they get older how they perceive food they're never eaten.

 

[bookitty]

This is a serious question and I hope it's not taken as some dig at your choices. Do vegans actually like or enjoy the food you eat?

I'm no longer a vegan but I still use all my old recipes and tricks, like black bean burgers or over-ripe avocado in place of butter in carrot cake. The only thing I ever missed as a vegan was cheese and butter. There's something about those specific fats that is impossible to replace.

A proper vegan diet is a little more involved than your standard meat-starch-side dish. If you enjoy cooking, every meal becomes happy science project time. There's a lot more experimenting with grains, trying new techniques, replacing this with that, swapping recipes. Since you're already putting in some effort, making it tasty is pretty easy.

Must admit, when I was a vegan, this question always cracked me up. So many people, no matter what diet, just eat the nearest, easiest thing. It's not always delicious. It's not like the carnivores are sitting down to a perfectly grilled steak every night.

 

[citizenzen]

I know lots of vegans who've raised their kids vegan, so I'd love to ask the kids when they get older how they perceive food they're never eaten.

I was at the store the other day (we have a wide variety of great natural food stores in my area) and saw a young boy snacking on a raw leaf of cabbage.

But kids being kids, he'll probably end up eating hamburgers, just to piss off the old man.