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Why Time Travel Won't Work (Sometimes)

TillEulenspiegel said:
I know you didn't ask this but apparently Time flows only in one direction. That is forward, so the issue even considering a Time Paradox , means nothing since the real world does not allow us to travel backwards in time. That's all science fiction.

This isn't so clear. With the exception of two kinds of meson (so far) the basic laws of physics appear to work just as well in both directions in time. This includes everything that is likely to matter to a human being who isn't studying mesons.

At the macroscopic level, the arrow of time appears to be a statistical property, described sometimes as an increase in entropy.
 
The flaw is that by travelling back to 1940 (eg) events which happened in 1980, like your birth, HAVE NOT HAPPENED anymore.

Why? Maybe your arrival in the 1940s was always one of the events that would conclude in 1980 with our birth.

Whether or not you could be your own grandpa is another matter.

David
 
Epepke
Well I did use qualifiers. There have been serious alternative takes on the time arrow. In QM in the many universe theory it has been postulated that by manipulating space-time ( warping it ) via a construct called a closed time-like curve (CTC) described by Gödel , it would be possible to "slide" sideways to an alternate universe at a time that occurred prior to the time in your normal universe, thereby excluding any grandfather paradox . Hawking believes that any CTC that exist would be extraordinarily short lived of would cease to be if one approached it

Richard Feynman theorized that in QED backward and forward time movement of particles and anti-particles is possible.

Tachyons are proposed particles that exhibit -t behavior . The original idea was evoked as a property of 10-dimensional string theory which has all but been dismissed altho there is a new reconsideration of this hypothetical beast as an adjunct of 11 dimensional string theory as an open string.

There are possibilities that these things may exist , but they appear to all be special cases and most physicists agree that any backward movement in time cannot transmit information ( and what is a human or a machine that got him there but information ) and that any construct used for time travel prohibits traveling to a point before the construct existed ( at least in the same universe).

Bottom line being for now special class HE physics can demonstrate -t behaviors, but the translation to macroscopic scales is something altogether different.


I'm sure I forgot to dot a few i's since this from memory.
 
TillEulenspiegel said:
Richard Feynman theorized that in QED backward and forward time movement of particles and anti-particles is possible.

Well, up until around 1958, if memory serves, it was believed that charge was a complete symmetry of the universe, which would mean that everything was reversible. Then weak beta decay was found to violate parity symmetry. Then sometime in the 60s (I think) k-mesons were discovered to violate time symmetry, so now we have to use CPT symmetry. This really bugged me for a long period of time, because I can't see how just one particle could do this. There's a sort of aesthetic to this stuff, and it always seemed to me that there should be an even number of them. Then someone, I forget who (maybe it was you), pointed out on this board that much more recently another meson has been found to violate T symmetry, which makes me feel a lot better.

CPT, or any group of three, forms a nice symmetry system, for some reason, and seems to crop up a lot.

Feynman's view was not precisely a belief, but an interpretation and popular description of CPT symmetry, that an antiparticle, which has CP reversed, in indistinguishable from its corresponding particle travelling backward through time. Of course, where one goes from there may involve beliefs. I find highly interesting his dodge for the backward photons from the Maxwell's equations, that essentually, every "backward" photon is involved in a virtual photon exchange with something in the past. Which got me speculating--it seems to imply that a photon has to hit something back in time, which is consistent with Big Bang ideas, because if you go back far enough in any direction, you hit something. So, does the fact that radio does work forward in time provide evidence that there will be no Big Crunch? Or is it a probabilistic thing, and at this time in the universe, the probabilities are just overwhelmingly forward? Some hard SF has been written assuming that it is probabilistic. Greg Egan, maybe, or Stephen Baxter. But I digress.

Tachyons are proposed particles that exhibit -t behavior . The original idea was evoked as a property of 10-dimensional string theory which has all but been dismissed altho there is a new reconsideration of this hypothetical beast as an adjunct of 11 dimensional string theory as an open string.

Tachyons are way older than that. Just take v greater than c and calculate gamma. Then all the annoying infinities go away, but you're left with imaginary numbers in all your mechanics equations. This is not as bad as it sounds, because standard Minkowski space used in relativity is just like plain space if you assume that the time coordinate is imaginary.

There are possibilities that these things may exist , but they appear to all be special cases and most physicists agree that any backward movement in time cannot transmit information ( and what is a human or a machine that got him there but information ) and that any construct used for time travel prohibits traveling to a point before the construct existed ( at least in the same universe).

The latter is true. Plus, these things tend to be made of completely uniform materials of infinite length, which we don't think are possible.

As to the former, it's my opinion that transmitting information back in time would violate relativity. But I'm not certain about that, and I've seen people who aren't entirely stupid disagree. It is a handy mathematical trick to assume that something like information is going back in time. But its usefulness is limited to quantum interactions, which seem not to be able to transmit information even superluminally, despite "spooky interactions over a distance." (This point completes Feynman's idea with Maxwell's equations.

Bottom line being for now special class HE physics can demonstrate -t behaviors, but the translation to macroscopic scales is something altogether different.

That's one of those quantum things. It just so happens that, at those temperatures, quantum behavior gets obviously big. As with, to take an earlier and simpler example, Einstein-Bose condensates.

Trouble is, I'm not sure where the microscopic ends and the macroscopic begins. People have been using time-reversal (call it a mathematical trick or reality, whatever) when drawing Feynman diagrams for decades. But there's always the caveat that, well, this is small, so I don't have to think about it when ordering a beer. There are plenty of macroscopic things that could not work in a classical universe, such as this computer and the eyeballs I use to see the screen. Light itself wouldn't work over distances of parsecs the way it does if it weren't for QED. But these are all indirect. The HE experiments just make a quantum operation directly large enough that it cannot be ignored.

Plus, there are about a half dozen mainstream interpretations of QM and about a bazillion others, none of which, so far, anyone has been able to convince me is in any way empirically distinguishable from the other. (Someone tried once; the best attempt I've seen, but it had a fatal flaw.) When I see this, I get an intuitive feeling that the fact that there are so many means that none of them is very good, and there might be some other way of looking at it.

I like to play a sort of ultra-skeptical game sometimes, wherein I make a distinction between what I really think I know, what I just kinda think I know, and what I just sorta assume I know. I really think I know some aspects of information theory, the whole Shannon schtick with irreversible computing engines, and that that it can be tied directly to thermodynamics. I really think I know that the best evidence for a macroscopic arrow of time is also thermodynamic and information theory in nature. I really think I know that I have a brain, and that this brain operates as a theremodynamically irreversible computing engine. I really think I know it because my head gets hot.

Put that together, and what I kinda think I know is that my brain operates according to the same set of statistical laws that provide the best evidence on a macroscopic scale for the arrow of time. So, I kinda think I know that my brain, being an entropy engine, is going to perceive other entropy engines, like the macroscopic universe, as going the same direction in time. My process of forming memories involves entropy-increasing operations, so the time when there was more entropy is in my memory, and the time when there will be less entropy is not in my memory.

However, I only sorta assume I know that this perception is an accurate perception of what's going on. If some demiurge or Maxwell's demon started playing tricks with the entropy of the universe, jogging it back and forth like the time slider on a PC DVD player, I wouldn't notice at all, because at all times my memories would always be of lower-entropy times. Again I digress.

But anyway, if I were writing an SF story, I'd either use a many-worlds interpretation, where the arrival of a time traveler in the universe he and/or she arrives in is just a big fat hairy quantum fluctuation with respect to that universe, or one wherein paradoxes are averted because of feedback both ways between the past and the future which will settle down to some stable configuration in which the paradox does not occur.
 
davidhorman said:


There was a bit about detecting radio signals from the future in Stephen Baxter's Time.

David

That must've been it. Thanks.
 
IIRC one of Heinlein's last stories was about skipping thru parallel universes with some MIB chasing the protagonist. I thought he was loosing his marbles at the time ( think I was 12) but I wasn't aware of many worlds QM theory at the time.
 
TillEulenspiegel said:
IIRC one of Heinlein's last stories was about skipping thru parallel universes with some MIB chasing the protagonist. I thought he was loosing his marbles at the time ( think I was 12) but I wasn't aware of many worlds QM theory at the time.

There have been quite a few good stories about this. One, I think, was The Coming of the Quantum Cats by Frederik Pohl.

Of course, there's no evidence that any possible connection between parallel universes exists in the long term, and in many worlds it only has to exist long enough for the world where the electron goes through one slit and the world where it goes through another to interfere, or whatnot.
 
A long time ago I read a cartoon in which the timetravellers - having travelled back in time - had to stay indoors because of rain. The reason for this was that every raindrop had already taken the route once and they would take the same route no matter what - therefore every raindrop would, in effect, be a bullet going through the time travellers.

I cannot recall the name of the cartoon. But the bearing idea was anyway that the past had already happened. Can anyone remeber whether there was any science behind this idea ?
 
Monster of Loch Ness said:
A long time ago I read a cartoon in which the timetravellers - having travelled back in time - had to stay indoors because of rain. The reason for this was that every raindrop had already taken the route once and they would take the same route no matter what - therefore every raindrop would, in effect, be a bullet going through the time travellers.


I don't know - but it makes me wonder how they breathed.
 
Re: Re: Why Time Travel Won't Work (Sometimes)

Archangel said:


Actually Parallel Universes would mean that there could be no paradox for instance:

In universe A) you build a time machine go back in time to the night of your conception kick your dad in the nuts etc. and go forward in time to find yourself not born (in your frame of reference) however what happened was that when you went back in time you actually exited Universe A) and entered Universe B).

So to inhabitants of a) it would seem that you were born, grew up, built a time machine and vanished never to be seen again, whilst in b) you were never born, suddenly appeared in one night of nut kicking insanity and then disappeared to reappear out of nowhere to live out your days.

Of course, in an exactly parallel universe, your parallel self would try to enter into our universe at the same time and place as you were entering into theirs, and so you end up with a whole new paradox if they could affect your background and you affect theirs. :D
 
Re: Time travel

CrossHair said:
To physically travel through time would have to be in a space ship for this reason.... The earth and solar system are always in motion and we are not in the same location we used to be. To travel back in time from our present location would put us, most likely, into deep space because the earth and solar system are not here in the past. Therefore you had better be in a space ship to survive!

Thank you! Of course this point is nearly always missed in discussions of time travel. Where would you go back TO?

Because we are orbiting large celestial objects, our path through space is not a straight line. We have no idea of our net velocity through space between any 2 points in time. Assuming we can go back in time and be anywhere we wanted: how would we know where to travel to?
 

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