Why the hate on Ayn Rand?

Hans, could be just poor writing skills. That snippet seemed very clunky.

Curious. Was English her first language?

No, it wasn't. See the Wikipedia bio below:

Ayn Rand (pronounced /ˈaɪn ˈrænd/;[1] born Alisa Zinov'yevna Rosenbaum; February 2 [O.S. January 20] 1905 – March 6, 1982), was a Russian-American novelist, philosopher,[2] playwright, and screenwriter. She is known for her two best-selling novels and for developing a philosophical system she called Objectivism. Born and educated in Russia, Rand emigrated to the United States in 1926. She worked as a screenwriter in Hollywood and had a play produced on Broadway in 1935–1936. She first achieved fame in 1943 with her novel The Fountainhead, which in 1957 was followed by her best-known work, the philosophical novel Atlas Shrugged.
 
Just to make it clear, the rape scene we're talking about is this:

She tried to tear herself away from him. The effort broke against his arms that had not felt it. Her fists beat against his shoulders, against his face. He moved one hand, took her two wrists and pinned them behind her, under his arm, wrenching her shoulder blades.…She fell back against the dressing table, she stood crouching, her hands clasping the edge behind her, her eyes wide, colorless, shapeless in terror. He was laughing. There was the movement of laughter on his face, but no sound.…Then he approached. He lifted her without effort. She let her teeth sink into his hand and felt blood on the tip of her tongue. He pulled her head back and he forced her mouth open against his.

Even the author says terror.

We're not talking about fulfilling a woman's secret fantasies, or it being hot for both. We're talking an actual fight, and the author has the female terrorized there.

I don't know about y'all, but for me being paralysed with sheer terror is not an erotic thing. Some degree of domination in a consensual encounter, sure, I can see how some people would like that. Terror, nope, is something else. It's something hard wired to not mean "let's hang around and explore the fun parts."

Let's roll that bit around in the head. As the author, Rand is the puppet master. She could have made her character think, say or feel anything that made the point she was trying to make. If she wanted it to be hot for both, she was free to make her character display that kind of emotion.

The setup isn't of an erotic fantasy or RP kinda thing, it's a flat out description of brutal rape, very much unwanted by the victim, and very much a psychological trauma.

ETA: and very much in line with the kind of psychopaths taking whatever they want, and unequipped to understand why someone else's feelings matter, that Rand was admiring as Real Men in her journals all along. It's not an erotic fantasy, it's a psychopathy fantasy.

ETA: and I still find it horribly offensive to state that anything imaginable could constitute "engraved invitation" for _that_. You can't get a much clearer case of blaming the victim, and essentially the same blame that's thrown in the face of rape victims everywhere.



No, here's the whole scene we're talking about.

I realize "rape fantasy" popularity (and yes, a number of studies show it is number one) is one of those third rails even skeptics like to avoid, like the famous studies showing no psychological damage to 14 and 15 year olds who have consenting sex with adults.


So, I will ask again: Do we hold a highly intelligent woman, whose most famous saying is "A is A", i.e. a thing is what it is in reality, to fault for not throwing in with fear of this third rail?


ETA: Not encouraging rape fantasies by not reading or writing them might be a perfectly valid viewpoint for social modification, if you are afraid said fantasies might lead to the real thing. If so, people should at least admit it.
 
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No, here's the whole scene we're talking about.

I realize "rape fantasy" popularity (and yes, a number of studies show it is number one) is one of those third rails even skeptics like to avoid, like the famous studies showing no psychological damage to 14 and 15 year olds who have consenting sex with adults.


So, I will ask again: Do we hold a highly intelligent woman, whose most famous saying is "A is A", i.e. a thing is what it is in reality, to fault for not throwing in with fear of this third rail?


ETA: Not encouraging rape fantasies by not reading or writing them might be a perfectly valid viewpoint for social modification, if you are afraid said fantasies might lead to the real thing. If so, people should at least admit it.

My god, that made it worse.

Having been subjected to innumerable Rape is Love erotica (again, see TVTropes), I have to say this is the worst I've ever read.

And I recall several threads on rape fantasies, so stop acting so persecuted.
 
Just to make it clear, the rape scene we're talking about is this:

She tried to tear herself away from him. The effort broke against his arms that had not felt it. Her fists beat against his shoulders, against his face. He moved one hand, took her two wrists and pinned them behind her, under his arm, wrenching her shoulder blades.…She fell back against the dressing table, she stood crouching, her hands clasping the edge behind her, her eyes wide, colorless, shapeless in terror. He was laughing. There was the movement of laughter on his face, but no sound.…Then he approached. He lifted her without effort. She let her teeth sink into his hand and felt blood on the tip of her tongue. He pulled her head back and he forced her mouth open against his.

Even the author says terror.

We're not talking about fulfilling a woman's secret fantasies, or it being hot for both. We're talking an actual fight, and the author has the female terrorized there.

I don't know about y'all, but for me being paralysed with sheer terror is not an erotic thing. Some degree of domination in a consensual encounter, sure, I can see how some people would like that. Terror, nope, is something else. It's something hard wired to not mean "let's hang around and explore the fun parts."

Let's roll that bit around in the head. As the author, Rand is the puppet master. She could have made her character think, say or feel anything that made the point she was trying to make. If she wanted it to be hot for both, she was free to make her character display that kind of emotion.

The setup isn't of an erotic fantasy or RP kinda thing, it's a flat out description of brutal rape, very much unwanted by the victim, and very much a psychological trauma.

ETA: and very much in line with the kind of psychopaths taking whatever they want, and unequipped to understand why someone else's feelings matter, that Rand was admiring as Real Men in her journals all along. It's not an erotic fantasy, it's a psychopathy fantasy.

ETA: and I still find it horribly offensive to state that anything imaginable could constitute "engraved invitation" for _that_. You can't get a much clearer case of blaming the victim, and essentially the same blame that's thrown in the face of rape victims everywhere.

Okay, I think I just failed as a woman because that passage offends me more as a writing instructor than as a woman. I mean, yes, it's abhorrent, but for the love of FSM, vary your sentence structure, lady!
 
When it comes down to it, I don't think we hate Ayn Rand any more than we hate Edgar Allen Poe. However, most of us stop finding Poe's stories all that fascinating once we get out of adolescence. Likewise, Rand's fiction really appeals to 20 year-olds, and most of us move on as we grow up.

Among other criticism I have of her work is that her characters are a bit like cardboard. They seem, overwhelmingly to be all-good or all-bad - good and bad being determined by whether or not you agree with Rand's libertarian-oriented philosophy. The "collectivists" are unremittingly corrupt. She seems incapable of conceiving the idea that someone might be quite noble and still disagree with her views. A character who was a mix of good and bad and who had to struggle to do the right thing, in short a complex character would have ben much more interesting.

Also, as I've said before, her views have only a nodding acquaintance with reality. Often the captains of industry, far from being noble and only wanting to be unrestrained by pointless regulation, as she paints her heroes, are often, along with being visionary and great movers, in many ways controlling types who want to run the lives of others, will use monopolizing tactics to wipe out the opposition (as opposed to simply out-competing them), and often seek to bend political power to their own ends.

I suspect Rand was probably not too fond of Franklin D. Roosevelt and the policies of the New Deal. However, I doubt too many of us would like to live and work in a system that lacked the regulatory restraints imposed by the Fair Labor Relations Act.
 
When it comes down to it, I don't think we hate Ayn Rand any more than we hate Edgar Allen Poe. However, most of us stop finding Poe's stories all that fascinating once we get out of adolescence. Likewise, Rand's fiction really appeals to 20 year-olds, and most of us move on as we grow up.

To each his own, I guess.

I love Poe. He has a great, dry wit. You *do* know that he did more than the macabre stories, right?
 
To each his own, I guess.

I love Poe. He has a great, dry wit. You *do* know that he did more than the macabre stories, right?

Deep into that darkness peering
Long I stood there
Wondering... Fearing... Doubting...
 
Sometimes there are some things on this forum that I just don't get. One of them is the hate and ridicule on Ayn Rand. I don't know that much about her other than she was a famous author who wrote some seminal works that made her stand out from the crowd.

I tried to read Atlas Shrugged in high school as an assignment but got bored, skimmed through enough to get a C on a book report. From Wiki-ing her she seemed to be famous for the philosophy of Objectivism.

Objectivism is a philosophy created by the Russian-American philosopher and novelist Ayn Rand (1905–1982). Objectivism holds that reality exists independent of consciousness, that human beings have direct contact with reality through sense perception, that one can attain objective knowledge from perception through the process of concept formation and inductive and deductive logic, that the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness or rational self-interest, that the only social system consistent with this morality is full respect for individual rights, embodied in pure laissez faire capitalism, and that the role of art in human life is to transform man's widest metaphysical ideas, by selective reproduction of reality, into a physical form—a work of art—that he can comprehend and to which he can respond emotionally.

So what's all the fuss about?

From my perspective, Ayn Rand's political philosophy can be quite seductive on the surface, but gets problematic on a deeper, more ethical level.

Jeff Walker, a biographer, found this entry in one of her personal journals: "One puts oneself above all and crushes everything in one's way to get the best for oneself. Fine!" To me, that's the core of Objectivism. Of course, publicly she put it more poetically. In Atlas Shrugged, for example, she writes, "My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute."

Same idea, but the latter is far more attractive. Hell, I'd even agree with it if I didn't understand what it actually boiled down to! It sounds good in theory, but in practice it's not hard to find examples of people doing things in their 'best interest' and harming others in the process. Ideally, we want people to desire what's best for themselves and then do things that benefit themselves and society at the same time, but when you rely solely on rational self-interest (read 'greed') as a motivating factor, many of those things will likely be harmful to someone else.

I agree with Rand to a certain extent about personal responsibility and the idea that we're responsible for making good decisions and should reap the fruits of our labour. But I also think that, as a society, we have a collective responsibility to one another as well. We should work together in the spirit of social cooperation, helping each other make good decisions along the way in support of the common good. While societies are composed of individuals, all you have to do is look around and see that the individual is anything but independent in a civil society; they depend on a number of factors for their survival, and I'd argue that one of those factors is the cooperation and mutual well-being of other individuals in that society.

For what it's worth, I don't see one political ideology or philosophy as inherently right or wrong, I've simply sided with the one I think is geared more towards taking the needs of society as its primary focus. I used to be more of an individualist, but for whatever reason I found myself unable to not take the needs and suffering of others into consideration, which is why I've come to adopt more socialist-leaning views. Everyone's mileage may vary, of course.

As a side note, I think Edward Bellamy humourously illustrates the ideological difference between individualism and socialism quite well in his 1887 utopian novel, Looking Backward, when he writes:

A heavy rainstorm came up during the day, and I had concluded that the condition of the streets would be such that my hosts would have to give up the idea of going out to dinner, although the dining-hall I had understood to be quite near. I was much surprised when at the dinner hour the ladies appeared prepared to go out, but without either rubbers or umbrellas.

The mystery was explained when we found ourselves on the street, for a continuous waterproof covering had been let down so as to inclose the sidewalk and turn it into a well lighted and perfectly dry corridor, which was filled with a stream of ladies and gentlemen dressed for dinner. At the comers the entire open space was similarly roofed in. Edith Leete, with whom I walked, seemed much interested in learning what appeared to be entirely new to her, that in the stormy weather the streets of the Boston of my day had been impassable, except to persons protected by umbrellas, boots, and heavy clothing. "Were sidewalk coverings not used at all?" she asked. They were used, I explained, but in a scattered and utterly unsystematic way, being private enterprises. She said to me that at the present time all the streets were provided against inclement weather in the manner I saw, the apparatus being rolled out of the way when it was unnecessary. She intimated that it would be considered an extraordinary imbecility to permit the weather to have any effect on the social movements of the people.

Dr. Leete, who was walking ahead, overhearing something of our talk, turned to say that the difference between the age of individualism and that of concert was well characterized by the fact that, in the nineteenth century, when it rained, the people of Boston put up three hundred thousand umbrellas over as many heads, and in the twentieth century they put up one umbrella over all the heads.

As we walked on, Edith said, "The private umbrella is father's favorite figure to illustrate the old way when everybody lived for himself and his family. There is a nineteenth century painting at the Art Gallery representing a crowd of people in the rain, each one holding his umbrella over himself and his wife, and giving his neighbors the drippings, which he claims must have been meant by the artist as a satire on his times."​
 
I agree with Rand to a certain extent about personal responsibility and the idea that we're responsible for making good decisions and should reap the fruits of our labour. But I also think that, as a society, we have a collective responsibility to one another as well.

Well, the problem comes in when people shirk those responsibilities. And let's face it, we all do. (Have you really never missed a deadline when someone else was counting on you?)

Stalin "solved" this problem by making shirking responsibilities a criminal offense and imposed a very costly social structure to enforce this -- and it didn't work very well. Rand recognized this. But she threw the baby out with the bathwater (as is characteristic of black/white thinkers) and decided that because Stalin's approach didn't exist, there's no such thing as a "collective responsibility" in the first place.

Which is rather like deciding that because I personally am a lousy cook, souffles don't exist.
 
Whether you like or dislike Poe, I think it's fair to point out that there is no political movement to replace the government with a system of still beating hearts under floorboards.
 
Whether you like or dislike Poe, I think it's fair to point out that there is no political movement to replace the government with a system of still beating hearts under floorboards.

Alas.
 
Whether you like or dislike Poe, I think it's fair to point out that there is no political movement to replace the government with a system of still beating hearts under floorboards.

Well, maybe there should be.

Maybe there should.
 
I don't think the whole scene makes it any better.

Sure, Rand makes her character like it in the end, because essentially that's the continuation of the blaming-the-victim trope. Rape as a way to show her what she's been missing, and that she'll definitely like it, is after all not even as much a female rape fantasy as a male rape fantasy. It's for example the whole idea behind the "corrective rape" aberration.

In fact, it plays all the bad tropes about rape, from the mysoginist point of view. She even squeezes in essentially the OT view that if nobody heard the victim scream for help, it must be consent.

Or such aberrations as, "had he meant less to her, she would not have fought so desperately." Really? You can tell how much a woman wants you by how desperately she defends herself? REALLY?

The whole thing reads really as two things merged in one. One is a plain old hateful and brutal rape, and the other is the rationalizations to make it seem more palatable.

Rand even tells you that there was no love or anything involved. "She felt the hatred and his hands" (my emphasis)or "He did it as an act of scorn. Not as love, but as defilement.". Etc. In one point it's compared to a soldier's punishing the enemy population.

Even the beginning part I quoted, where he pins her hands, is brutal beyond any necessity. The only way to take someone's arms from the front and pin them behind their back with one hand is over the head, and if it's much lower than behind their neck... yeah, wrenching the shoulder blades is exactly what will happen. It's something that was done (though usually in reverse) as torture in the middle ages. The fact that the wrenching of shoulder blades is the one thing mentioned, tells me that's not Rand's English being chunky, she's deliberately putting her victim through that kind of extra brutality.

Rand also doesn't really say much that the victim enjoyed it. Sure, at one point she says so, but what she describes the rest of the time is sheer terror. She even uses the word "terror" twice. Explicitly.

As I was saying, it doesn't read as much as a woman's fantasy, it reads more like someone first wrote the most brutal and non-erotic rape possible, and then added some bits to make it more palatable.

As I was saying, it's not an erotic fantasy, it's a fantasy about being a psychopath. And most likely Rand there identifies with the guy not with the victim.
 
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