Why so much hatred for feminism?

[KingMerv00]

Good God, why?

Rhetorically, it sounds like a bad strategy. I don't see how it could gain you any leverage.

Given the response of some people to this thread, I tend to agree.

 

[KingMerv00]

Then do you think the following is sexist?

A straight cisgendered male American, because of who he is and the culture he lives in, does not and cannot feel the stress, creepiness, and outright threat behind a catcall the way a woman can. His upbringing has given him fur and paws big enough to turn the dials and plopped him down in temperate Ohio. When she says “you don’t have to put up with being leered at,” what she means is, “you don’t ever have to be wary of sexual interest.” That’s male privilege. Not so much that something doesn’t happen to men, but that it will never carry the same weight, even if it does.

Yes. Mostly for the absolute nature of its statements. I do think that men are not leered at or cat called nearly as much as women and that because of socialization, men are less likely to to be offended by those kinds of actions but to say it's not possible and the harm is always less is too far.

Sounds like something Rebecca wrote. I recognize the paw/fur metaphor.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So [rule 10] them? And do you have any actual evidence for this claim?

Because men don't care about women at all?

Two false dichotomies for the price of one.

If one is concerned about a problem that mostly affects children and young women it doesn't make one care little about anything else.
Men can care about women and neglect their health care needs at the same time. Isn't that amazing?


FORCED LABOUR BY SEX

Forced economic exploitation:
• Women and girls - 56%
• Men and boys - 44%
Forced commercial sexual exploitation
• Women and girls - 98%
• Men and boys - 2%
FORCED LABOUR BY AGE
• Children - 40 to 50%

(warning , large file) UNICEF Maternal and Newborn Health 2009

Each year, more than half a million women die from causes related to pregnancy and childbirth, and nearly 4 million newborns die within 28 days of birth. Millions more suffer from disability, disease, infection and injury. Cost-effective solutions are available that could bring rapid improvements, but urgency and commitment are required to implement them and to meet the Millennium Development Goals related to maternal and child health. The first chapter of The State of the World’s Children 2009 examines trends and levels of maternal and neonatal health in each of the major regions,...

...That maternal health – as epitomized by the risk of death or disability from causes related to pregnancy and childbirth – has scarcely advanced in decades is the result of multiple underlying causes. The root cause may lie in women’s disadvantaged position in many countries and cultures, and in the lack of attention to, and accountability for, women’s rights.

 

[Piggy]

Boys are not "trafficked as well" in any significant way except maybe some of the youngest victims. And if men died in childbirth you can bet you would see more medical care and research applied to the problem.

But anyway, ....

So the trafficking of boys is of no consequence because they are very young?

Ooooookay.

 

[Piggy]

Why would research to bring medical science for women up to the same level as for men be feminist?

Feminism: 2-"organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests". http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feminism

Once you start flinging the broad brush around, complaining about lack of parsimony is unconvincing.

If you're trying to argue against me, taking the same side is an odd strategy.

 

[AvalonXQ]

And if men died in childbirth you can bet you would see more medical care and research applied to the problem.

Having seen the remarkable resources brought to bear on a problem pregnancy -- and also noting that there is an entire wing of most hospitals devoted just to childbirth and a quite common specialty of medicine for it -- it strains incredulity to claim that childbirth receives insufficient medical focus because it's women's medicine.

Honestly, what exactly do you think we'd be doing if it were men that we're not already doing?

Even most feminists typically acknowledge that it is research into male-specific diseases that is under-funded. You appear to believe it's the opposite; do you have numbers to back up this somewhat unusual position?

 

[bookitty]

Good God, why?

Rhetorically, it sounds like a bad strategy. I don't see how it could gain you any leverage.

Because, as I said, in the 70's and 80's there was one huge group of voters to scare the politicians into being careful of stepping on women's rights. We don't have that anymore and it shows.

Typed written letters mailed to your local or state-level politician are more effective than email. A single letter will be counted as more then one voter. By using the word "feminist," I am not just commenting on whatever specific law, bill or motion but also adding a bit of shorthand which says that I am focused on women's issues.

The 4th wave of Western feminism is starting, mostly as a backlash to the war on women. It's primarily driven by social media and appears to have as many allies as participants (an interesting shift.) Perhaps the baggage of the word "feminism" will make it obsolete or maybe that same baggage will add weight to the word. If people are willing to pick up a hackneyed term in order to address social issues, it punctuates our backwards social slide.

 

[Piggy]

Having seen the remarkable resources brought to bear on a problem pregnancy -- and also noting that there is an entire wing of most hospitals devoted just to childbirth and a quite common specialty of medicine for it -- it strains incredulity to claim that childbirth receives insufficient medical focus because it's women's medicine.

Honestly, what exactly do you think we'd be doing if it were men that we're not already doing?

Even most feminists typically acknowledge that it is research into male-specific diseases that is under-funded. You appear to believe it's the opposite; do you have numbers to back up this somewhat unusual position?

It also assumes that men don't really care about their wives and children.

Some would call that "male bashing" and it might just turn them off to feminism.

Besides, although saying "we must do more to protect women" is a strong argument, if you're trying to get the cooperation of men, it's a weaker argument than "if we value fairness, we won't allow women to be treated unfairly".

 

[bookitty]

Yes. Mostly for the absolute nature of its statements. I do think that men are not leered at or cat called nearly as much as women and that because of socialization, men are less likely to to be offended by those kinds of actions but to say it's not possible and the harm is always less is too far.

Sounds like something Rebecca wrote. I recognize the paw/fur metaphor.

it is a different blogger and the original can be found here:
https://sindeloke.wordpress.com/2010/01/13/37/

 

[Piggy]

Because, as I said, in the 70's and 80's there was one huge group of voters to scare the politicians into being careful of stepping on women's rights. We don't have that anymore and it shows.

But why make that kind of appeal "as a feminist"?

Rhetorically, that puts you in the position of appealing for the rights of a particular group right off the bat. And if you're appealing to a man, which would be most of Congress, it's an outgroup.

It would be much stronger, imo, to make the appeal as a citizen who believes all citizens should get a fair shake, and to make a direct appeal to your representative's own values, which no doubt s/he is quick to trumpet in campaign speeches.

In other words, rather than appeal for a group, wouldn't it be more effective to point out a violation of universal values to which your audience publicly subscribes?

 

[crimresearch]

If you're trying to argue against me, taking the same side is an odd strategy.

I noted your '

I'm sorry, but academically, I see no need for feminism per se. Ditto goes for daily life.

'

So far we have you attempting to redefine the word, then moving the goal posts, are you now going for a complete flip-flop and saying that you now agree with me that there is value to some academic feminism?

 

[bookitty]

But why make that kind of appeal "as a feminist"?

Rhetorically, that puts you in the position of appealing for the rights of a particular group right off the bat. And if you're appealing to a man, which would be most of Congress, it's an outgroup.

It would be much stronger, imo, to make the appeal as a citizen who believes all citizens should get a fair shake, and to make a direct appeal to your representative's own values, which no doubt s/he is quick to trumpet in campaign speeches.

In other words, rather than appeal for a group, wouldn't it be more effective to point out a violation of universal values to which your audience publicly subscribes?

You really can't imagine how much I'd love to go back to being concerned about everything and everyone. It's really much more my nature. But I simply don't have the luxury of pretending that the US is going forward or even stagnating when it comes to women's rights.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So the trafficking of boys is of no consequence because they are very young?

Ooooookay.

Not what I said.

@ all of you anti-feminist sentiment posting forumites here:

What's with all the sour grapes? If I care about exploited women in the world, which whether you like it or not, have much more serious human rights issues than men, are you all miffed because your gender is being left out?

This thread direction is bizarre. Can someone care about exploited children without including adults? Can someone point out where women's rights are lacking without including everyone on the planet who has a rights issue? Do you feel the same way because a gay person complains about discrimination? "I can't marry 2 people so gays should shut up?"

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Having seen the remarkable resources brought to bear on a problem pregnancy -- and also noting that there is an entire wing of most hospitals devoted just to childbirth and a quite common specialty of medicine for it -- it strains incredulity to claim that childbirth receives insufficient medical focus because it's women's medicine.

Honestly, what exactly do you think we'd be doing if it were men that we're not already doing?

Even most feminists typically acknowledge that it is research into male-specific diseases that is under-funded. You appear to believe it's the opposite; do you have numbers to back up this somewhat unusual position?

Funding of women's health care issues has been neglected for decades including leaving women out of studies like those on heart disease. Only recently have researchers begun to notice research results from studies on men don't always translate equally to women.

On a worldwide basis maternal health is in a sorry state in countries where women's rights are also denied. If we really wanted to 'win' in Afghanistan, actually funding the care at the Laura Bush maternity care ward in Kabul would be a great place to start.

In Afghanistan, perhaps the only thing more dangerous than being a woman is being a pregnant woman in need of medical care. A 2002 survey counted 1,600 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births. The cause of death was most often hemorrhaging or obstructed delivery, both preventable if skilled health care is available.

The contrast is staggering: in 2005, maternal mortality in four Afghan provinces ranked 130 times higher than the United States, with a reported 50 to 70 mothers dying every day from complications at birth. Nearly half the deaths among Afghan women of child-bearing age have been pregnancy-related and preventable.

Yes there are other causes, so what? What's wrong with calling attention to these problems that affect mostly women?

Fistula, one complication of pregnancy

Opium Brides - When Afghan Girls Pay the Price for the Crimes of Others

Darfur - Where Rape is a Weapon of War
Transcript of the program

Deborah Finding

knows well what it takes for women to get their lives back after being forced into the sex trade against their will. She is team leader of the POPPY Project, a government-financed organization in Great Britain that provides up to four weeks' support to trafficked women. She describes the basic facts and background on how the global sex trade works and the challenges in uprooting the networks of traffickers.

Kenya

Gender and Women's Rights

Women constitute 54 percent of Kenya's voting population, but occupy only 4 percent of its parliamentary seats and 18 percent of its judgeships.

Eighty percent of Kenyan agricultural workers are women, yet they own just 5 percent of the land.

In some regions of Kenya, adult women can be forced to marry without their consent. Through a practice called cleansing, a widow can be "inherited" by a close relative of her deceased husband or she can be forced to have sex with a social outcast to remove the spirits of her deceased husband.

An estimated 38 percent of Kenyan women between 15 and 49 years old had undergone female genital mutilation before the practice was legally banned in 2001.

Like many African countries, Kenya has been ravaged by the HIV/AIDS epidemic, and women appear to be the most affected. A survey by the Kenyan government found that 8.7 percent of women tested HIV positive, compared with 4.5 percent of men. Critics, including UNAIDS, say these results may reflect a falsely low infection rate because of the low survey response rate.

In Kenya, marital rape is not recognized as a crime. According to U.N. estimates, 42 percent of Kenyan women are battered by their husbands or partners. Perpetrators are rarely punished, however, because laws do not recognize domestic violence as a specific crime.

The Last Abortion Clinic (in the US)


I really fail to understand the sour grapes here.

 

[KingMerv00]

Not what I said.

@ all of you anti-feminist sentiment posting forumites here:

What's with all the sour grapes? If I care about exploited women in the world, which whether you like it or not, have much more serious human rights issues than men, are you all miffed because your gender is being left out?

Just so people don't jump on you over a quibble...

I think it would be better phrased to say that it is equally bad when a man suffers or a woman suffers. However, particular human rights issues affect women far more often than men. Putting a certain level of focus on the primary victims in those issues is a good idea because it has the best chance to reduce suffering for the most number of people.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Whenever women have insisted on absolute equality with men, they have invariably wound up with the dirty end of the stick. What they are and what they can do makes them superior to men, and their proper tactic is to demand special privileges, all the traffic will bear. They should never settle merely for equality. For women, "equality" is a disaster. - Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love

All people are different and have different strengths and weaknesses.

BTW this thread is crazy.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Funding of women's health care issues has been neglected for decades including leaving women out of studies like those on heart disease. Only recently have researchers begun to notice research results from studies on men don't always translate equally to women.

Interesting point.

On a worldwide basis maternal health is in a sorry state in countries where women's rights are also denied. If we really wanted to 'win' in Afghanistan, actually funding the care at the Laura Bush maternity care ward in Kabul would be a great place to start.

Okay, so the maternity health issue isn't about obstetrics being a neglected medicine area in developed countries, but rather about good maternity care not being available in developing countries.
Is this due to the status of women in these countries, or is it due to generally poor medical care in the area which happens to be particularly dangerous for pregnancy?

 

[AvalonXQ]

To answer your question, SG: for some of these issues, the concern seems to be that they're not really women's issues -- that is to say, the underlying cause isn't about male/female inequality or gender roles/attitudes, but about some other factor that affects both male and female victims.

As an extreme example, if a feminist were to talk about the "terrible attacks of September 11th where over a thousand women were killed", I think we would be right to ask the question, what's the purpose of focusing on that particular subset of deaths?

 

[KingMerv00]

All people are different and have different strengths and weaknesses.

BTW this thread is crazy.

Eww...Heinlen.

Crazy awesome or just crazy?

 

[AvalonXQ]

This thread direction is bizarre. Can someone care about exploited children without including adults?

I wanted to address this one point specifically. Yes, because children are different from adults. Exploiting them is worse, because we have a particular obligation to protect them. They're helpless, less intelligent, and weaker -- they should not be expected to look after themselves or make their own decisions.
Which of those things shall we say about women? I would prefer to say none of them. Women and men should be treated as equals; adults and children should not.

I think the days of counting women and children together, and separate from men, should be long past us by now.