Why so much hatred for feminism?

[KingMerv00]

That's big of you, but that's not what I meant.

Ah, I see. I take it back. I'm perfect.

 

[tyr_13]

In my experience, that is not the case. Men's issues always get shoehorned into a thread, like this one, that is about feminism. I've been told several times that until I tackle areas in which men specifically are unfairly targeted, my work as a feminist is hypocritical. (Funny thing is, I do target those areas because I'm fighting for gender equality.)

I've seen it happen both ways in roughly %100 of all related discussions. That's probably why she used an example (even though I disagree with the position in that example).

 

[lomiller]

A woman who goes from father to husband at a young age, is denied a higher education and spends her childhood being groomed for the role of wife and mother to the exclusion of all else, is a very different situation.

Maybe not the best example seeing as women are something like 50% more likely to obtain a post secondary education and this gap is growing. At this point it makes far more sense to look at why men are being denied a post secondary education than why women are.

 

[truethat]

Maybe not the best example seeing as women are something like 50% more likely to obtain a post secondary education and this gap is growing. At this point it makes far more sense to look at why men are being denied a post secondary education than why women are.

I would wager it's back to my statement that men are expected to work right out of the gate. Especially here in the US. Boys that live at home into their 20s are usually stereotyped as losers playing Xbox in mommy's basement.

Men are supposed to "get to working" and "Get to paying." So if they are married and they have kids, the wife then will stay home and do that more domesticated work and also have time to explore personal interests and passions. Men tend to get shoved into the machine and spun through it.

 

[KingMerv00]

I would wager it's back to my statement that men are expected to work right out of the gate. Especially here in the US. Boys that live at home into their 20s are usually stereotyped as losers playing Xbox in mommy's basement.

Men are supposed to "get to working" and "Get to paying." So if they are married and they have kids, the wife then will stay home and do that more domesticated work and also have time to explore personal interests and passions. Men tend to get shoved into the machine and spun through it.

Probably some truth to that but the college inequality is a fairly recent development so there must be more to the story since the "get to work" meme is fairly old. No ideas on what that may be.

 

[GreyArea]

Sorry the "group" is not that simple. And when feminists oversimplify it this way people get annoyed. Downright angry at time.

If you want to bring economics and class issues into the discussion of feminism, that is certainly worthwhile. I doubt there are many feminists who think that sexism is our only problem. As a matter of fact, some authors look at both sex and class, and how they intertwine. Some go further and also incorporate criticism of racism, as well as other systems.

There is no reason for these perspectives and criticisms of the status quo to be unilateral or mutually exclusive.

 

[truethat]

Most of the SAHMs I know are in Graduate school. One of the big problems in the US are the work hours. For example one of the reasons I stayed home as long as I did was because kids get out of school at 3 and mom and dad usually work until 5-6. So what do you do with the kids for three hours? it's actually easier to have them in preschool than in regular school. So moms are often staying home until the child is about 10 and can walk home and come home alone. In this interim there is the opportunity to go back to school. Nowadays with the internet mom can go to school online while the kids are in school.

So I think that the internet has a lot to do with it.

 

[lomiller]

I would wager it's back to my statement that men are expected to work right out of the gate. Especially here in the US. Boys that live at home into their 20s are usually stereotyped as losers playing Xbox in mommy's basement.

Men are supposed to "get to working" and "Get to paying." So if they are married and they have kids, the wife then will stay home and do that more domesticated work and also have time to explore personal interests and passions. Men tend to get shoved into the machine and spun through it.

I doubt there is any more stigma for either sex living at home, in fact it’s becoming the norm for both sexes to live at home for much longer.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

No, perhaps because of the word "queen". Then again, "deadbeat dad" hardly brings to mind a woman, either.

Yes, using the term, 'deadbeat dad', typically results from seeing the woman who is supporting the kids without help. But when a woman who has 3 kids finds she can't earn enough to pay for daycare she is seen as the deadbeat. The father in the situation is not called to mind, rather the stereotype is a woman who irresponsibly got pregnant. In the case of answering truethat my point was no one values that woman on welfare's hard work raising the kids, it isn't feminist women that belittle the work.

 

[sgtbaker]

Most of the SAHMs I know are in Graduate school. One of the big problems in the US are the work hours. For example one of the reasons I stayed home as long as I did was because kids get out of school at 3 and mom and dad usually work until 5-6. So what do you do with the kids for three hours? it's actually easier to have them in preschool than in regular school. So moms are often staying home until the child is about 10 and can walk home and come home alone. In this interim there is the opportunity to go back to school. Nowadays with the internet mom can go to school online while the kids are in school.

So I think that the internet has a lot to do with it.

Did you force the father of your children to work while you stayed home with the kids or was there a logical reason why he went to work instead of you? Was this the expectation that you put on him? Are you one of the ones who got to enjoy the at home life and explore other passions while he was expected to work right out of the gate?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

In theory you are correct. In practice, however, I remember the way a fellow student (I went to high school in the USA) was all but ostracized for daring to say in one of those "what do you want to be when you grow up" classes that she wanted to be a homemaker. Everything possible was done to make her feel stupid and wrong for saying that, and to make her change her mind so as to not "waste her life" this way.

Single anecdote. I can give you many many more with the opposite message to young girls.

 

[jiggeryqua]

I don't really care whether or not you call me a feminist. If you insist the word best describes the radicals, fine. Call me a "bleebo" if you like. However, when I start talking about equality, like I do in the OP and don't accompany it was a battlecry to ban porn or USE ALL CAPS, I'd thank you not to associate me with crazy misandrists and actually address why or why not my points are valid. Fair?

Fair...

I recently became a feminist...it took some effort.

You set out to become something you weren't, and that was difficult for you to reach. What was it you wanted? You wanted to agree with a position that you did not previously support, and found it hard to support. Why? [cough]togetlaid[/cough]

As a guy

Woah! Hold on. What do you mean, 'as a guy'? You think you speak for me because we both have a penis? Can a 'feminist' start an argument with "Well, I have a penis and this is what I think"?

I found a huge barrier was my understanding of the term "patriarchy". It conjures up images of laughing misogynists chomping on cigars and telling the "little woman" to “get back in the kitchen”. Obviously, that wasn’t ME so I felt unfairly attacked.

This is going well so far. So often, male feminists fail to realise that they are not the 'men' being talked about (despite the common genitalia), but still accept that there are 'other' men who are 'the problem'.

I also I felt like feminists were intentionally ignoring harmful and pervasive male stereotypes while harping on their own misery. It took a bit of reading on feminist websites to get how wrong I was. People need to understand the modern state of feminism is less about explicit misogyny and more about implicit sexism against women AND men.

Oh, it's a church, I see. More progressive and acceptable than those troublesome fundamentalists. Your femichurch is the true femichurch, of course.

Why call it FEMinism?

I was told, by a male feminist lecturer who nearly failed my provocative undergrad dissertation on feminism and the environment, that it is "because it was invented by a woman". I welcome reminders of things I've forgotten that were invented by a man and called 'man...' I suppose a man discovered the Isle of Man? For whatever reason it's called that, it's most often interpreted as equality 'for women', which isn't, obviously, any kind of 'equality' at all.

Isn’t that in and of itself, sexist? No.

No? An 'equality' movement that names itself unequally? That focuses on gender? Of course it's sexist. The difficulty is reconciling bad sexism and good sexism, but that's the secret of success right there: hold conflicting ideas and never let them meet.

Women have suffered to a greater extent in this environment while men have reaped more of the tangible benefits.

Call me a coward, but I include 'not being instructed on pain of death to risk my life in armed conflict and to die, as necessary, in agony in a muddy puddle' as a tangible benefit. You know this is a conspiracy theory, right? You're not ashamed to bring it up here? I love the idea of equality, I really do, and I have no argument with real problems unfairly foisted on actual groups through ignorance and prejudice. But you might as well blame the jews for the way the world is. Men didn't decide to be male in order to oppress women, nobody designed life to put them down, there is no secret society...or if there is, I'm a 48yo male and I've not been inducted yet. Mostly, I've been inducted into the 'sugar and spice/puppydog tails good girls & bad boys' mindset, and it wasn't my father who did that...

On average, men have more money and power than women because we are lucky enough to have been born into a world where we have a disproportionate amount of control.

'On average'? What a pointlessly vague phrase to use round here. Feminism has difficulty when it encounters class issues. The queen of england has, on average, considerably more money and power than an englishman.

Success begets success. Money begets money. It is the same reason white Americans hold more power than African Americans. That doesn't mean men or white people are vile. It just means they need to be socially aware and use their power to change the status quo.

Actually, it doesn't mean that at all. That kind of fallacious leap from 'true fact' to 'my plan of action' is very common in my experience of femisnists. Start with an objective, find an emotive fact, pretend there's a link.

Ultimately, the separation of powers leads to horrible sterotypes by assigning men and women into different roles: Men who cry are “fags”. Women with short hair are “dykes”. Men are loudmouthed slobs. Women are shrill and embarrassed to fart. Men unfairly lose child custody battles. Women get raped and people ask how she was dressed. EVERYONE pays the price and everyone needs to work together to stop it.

Can't argue. EVERYONE

However, when I start talking about equality[...]and don't [...] USE ALL CAPS, I'd thank you not to associate me with crazy misandrists [...]Fair?

Fair.

Everyone pays the price. That's why I'm an equitist. What are you?

During my web travels, I came across a lot of anti-feminist hatred. I don't use the word "hatred" lightly. Search "feminism" on youtube and watch a few videos at random and you'll see that most vids are anti-feminist screeds. The few videos that are pro-feminist receive tons of negative votes and are flooded with trolls. Most of the anger seems to be directed at radical misandry rather than more moderate feminism which, as far as I can tell, is the majority viewpoint. Most people hear "feminist" and think of wackjobs like Valerie Solanas. Why?

Start a new thread. People notice extremes and gloss over moderates, this isn't new. There are a lot of extremists though, eh?

Let me repeat: The problem isn't just what people do with the power they have. It's the fact that one group has more power than another in the first place.

And pretty people do better than ugly people. Clever people do better than dumb people. One group has more power, one has less power. Someone will be able to tell us which sci-fi author did that short story about 'handicapping' succesful people. 70s feminism attempted to ride the wave of the race rights movement in the states. But the comparison just doesn't stand up, although plenty of people fell (and are still falling...) for it.

 

[Weird Science]

Really? You went to a high school in the US in the late 80's that didn't have, for instance, Home Ec classes?

I didn't say there was some sort of official policy against homemaking; only that this was the attitude unofficially.

 

[Weird Science]

Someone will be able to tell us which sci-fi author did that short story about 'handicapping' succesful people.

Kurt Vonnegut's short story, "Harrison Bergson".

 

[A'isha]

I didn't say there was some sort of official policy against homemaking; only that this was the attitude unofficially.

So the only girls who dared select Home Ec as their elective were ostracised and mocked?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You said you were degraded for wanting to be a stay at home parent but didn't present evidence. Given the nature of your story, that's expected. The problem is that a 3rd party like me hears both stories and doesn't know how true either story is. It seems unfair to ask evidence of a personal anecdote when we are to accept yours at face value.

Even with anecdotes that are true, the stories are distorted by confirmation bias.

If a woman has a chip on her shoulder, then another woman saying she doesn't like to cook can be interpreted as demeaning the homemaker who does like to cook. But that may very well be a complete misconception. Bookitty and I both are saying we value the role of homemaker. I think it is seriously undervalued in this society and most feminists would agree. Yet we are being replied to with the assumption we don't value women's homemaker roles.

 

[bookitty]

Maybe not the best example seeing as women are something like 50% more likely to obtain a post secondary education and this gap is growing. At this point it makes far more sense to look at why men are being denied a post secondary education than why women are.

College Gender Gap Appears to be Stabilizing with One Notable Exception, American Council on Education Analysis Finds

Starting in the 70's there was a push to get more women into college, there were policies written, grants given, scholarships created. There was an imbalance in the system, it was addressed. There was a short while where the imbalance swung the other way and now it is heading back to center. This is the goal of social programs and it is heartening to have a working example.

This doesn't mean that the work is done. We are a long way from providing tertiary education to all students who would benefit from it. But we have tackled the major groups and can now work towards finding solutions for smaller groups and individuals.

 

[truethat]

Even with anecdotes that are true, the stories are distorted by confirmation bias.

If a woman has a chip on her shoulder, then another woman saying she doesn't like to cook can be interpreted as demeaning the homemaker who does like to cook. But that may very well be a complete misconception. Bookitty and I both are saying we value the role of homemaker. I think it is seriously undervalued in this society and most feminists would agree. Yet we are being replied to with the assumption we don't value women's homemaker roles.

By who? Who is the one with the chip on your shoulder. LOL

I never said that. Is someone else in this thread that I'm not seeing?

 

[Weird Science]

So the only girls who dared select Home Ec as their elective were ostracised and mocked?

Studying Home Ec was fine. Declaring in a session about one's goal in life (career counseling? I was something public so perhaps not exactly that) that one wants to be a homemaker was something else entirely.

 

[bookitty]

Sure we do. At least as well as we can for any other TV footage.

Porn is not limited to TV. Nor are the actors always credited. Personally, I don't agree with Norway's ban. I would much rather see support for and the promotion of consensual, protected pornography. There are producers who are more trustworthy in that regard. They should be rewarded.