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Why shouldn't I hate feminists?

Feminism: the radical notion that women are people.

Naive1000 said:
[To start off with I'm an egalitarian, so I do believe in equality before the rush of hate comes at me.]

While I do not hate any specific feminist or the goal of the feminist movement, I do hate feminists as a group. I had many bad experiences with feminists when I was in college, though I did nothing to garner the enmity I faced. I have social anxiety (back then too), so I think I was just an easy male target. It made my college life less the pleasant and I left before getting my degree partially because of the atmosphere that existed for me there.

Still, I try to let bygones be bygones. But, every time I think the movement has become less misandrous I run into things like this: Radical Feminism Enters the 21st Century. The article in itself is disturbing, but the responses are down right disgusting. Why should or would men want to join a movement that pretty much thinks of us as less than human. Here are just a few quotes:




One thing that also keeps me from feminism is that I never hear them speak out about these people claiming to be feminists or denouncing their views. If this is their movement they can keep it.

So tell me, why should I support feminism at all, and where are the feminists willing to stand against radicals like these?
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Feminism is defined as a movement for the equality of sexes. Since those women do not advocate for equality, they are by definition not feminists. (Kind of like a Mohammedan claiming to be a Christian, and yes, I have come across those.) They rather look like the female equivalent of them.

Btw, protip: women are normal people, and as people you will also find idiots and ******** among this group. Shocking, I know. :rolleyes:
 
HansMustermann said:
But, anyway, I'm sorry, that's still not anything even resembling actual egalitarianism. It's just how prejudice works these days.
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When I said MRA guys, I meant groups. Well, to tell the truth I really don't care if you think I'm an egalitarian or not. You've already made up your mind and nothing I say is going to change it, I have no reason to fight with you about what I label myself as, so peace be upon you.

@ixolite: Well that's extremely messed up. Never claimed the other side wasn't messed up too.

@KoihimeNakamura: What I said was that all the feminists I've ever personally met where like this, so they seem representative. And, I asked to be shown differently, but so far I've only been attacked -- not much good in that. Not helping their arguments for why I should change my mind on the feminist movement.

Just so you all know I've never met one of the so called "real" feminists, ever. Could be that they only bread the wackjob types down here in the south. I don't know. Also, I was looking at an extreme case that other feminist sites pointed too but never disavowed. Just find it strange.
 
Naive1000 said:
What I said was that all the feminists I've ever personally met where like this, so they seem representative. And, I asked to be shown differently, but so far I've only been attacked -- not much good in that. Not helping their arguments for why I should change my mind on the feminist movement.
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You haven't been attacked. Your position has been attacked, because it's hate based on ignorance. I'm okay with that being attacked.

Just so you all know I've never met one of the so called "real" feminists, ever.
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You're talking to several right now. Didn't you notice?
 
Kevin_Lowe said:
You haven't been attacked. Your position has been attacked, because it's hate based on ignorance. I'm okay with that being attacked.

You're talking to several right now. Didn't you notice?
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I disagree. My feeling may be irrational, but it is mine derived from experience. You can not change my experience, but you can change the feeling by showing why I shouldn't feel that way I do. So far, no one has done that. Just people saying I can't feel that way because they see it as wrong. But, just say that it's wrong with out proof isn't really going do any good is it? As skeptics we need proof for changing our opinion, but none has been provided. Also, no one has identified themselves as feminists, so how would I know who is or isn't. Most people here like to argue, so one can not assume whom is what just because they're arguing some point. Devil's advocates and all.
 
Speaking of notice, though, did you notice that even that author calls it "radical feminism"? You don't need to attach any further qualifiers, much less "radical", to describe a position if it's actually some common denominator tenets for the larger super-group. You don't hear about the Nicaean Creed as some form of "radical" Christianity, nor about natural selection being some form of "radical" Darwinism, nor about gravity being described as "radical" physics, nor about redistribution of wealth being some form of "radical" communism. If you don't draw a sub-division line based on a criterion that actually fits every member of the grou.

That the author needed to label it as "radical" feminism, already tells you that it's a sub-group rather than the position of every feminist out there. If it were the position of every feminist, then there would be nothing radical about it, and no need to call it "radical" or any other kind of implying a sub-group.

In other words, while you may or may not have met a non-radical feminist, the author of the blog post you linked to is aware that such a non-radical flavour exists. If you believe her about such inequality goals, why not believe her about that part too?
 
ixolite said:
Feminism is defined as a movement for the equality of sexes. Since those women do not advocate for equality, they are by definition not feminists. (Kind of like a Mohammedan claiming to be a Christian, and yes, I have come across those.) They rather look like the female equivalent of them.

Btw, protip: women are normal people, and as people you will also find idiots and ******** among this group. Shocking, I know. :rolleyes:
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I would say it is a movement to remove areas of female disadvantage. This does not equate always to removing areas of female advantage. Stereotypes in gender do not always hurt women they sometimes hurt men.

Now political movements need to be focused but there does seem to frequently be unwilling to admit the advantages of being female.
 
Naive1000 said:
I'm not advocating hating feminists. I'm just saying from personal experience, when ever I run into groups or even individual feminists, who call themselves feminists, this is what they have been like. So, show me a group of feminists who actually care about equality and not just women. Who don't hate men. Who don't think we're all privileged. Who care when women oppress men, not just when men are the oppressors. Who believe in true equality, then I'll change my view. Cheers :).
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The goals of authentic feminism don't include "women against men;" they are about opposing the system of patriarchy, because it forces people into narrow, culturally-defined roles instead of allowing them to be fully human. Patriarchy happens to be a historically male-dominated system, but feminists have always spoken about men, women and children all being liberated from societally-approved roles.

Feminism is actually more about ethics than politics. If a group or an individual doesn't think or behave ethically, as in the comments you cited, then they are not aligned with authentic feminism.
 
"Here are some quotes from a single source that I'm going to use to tar an entire broad movement. Tell me why this is wrong"

No thanks, I've got better things to do.
 
Naive1000 said:
I disagree. My feeling may be irrational, but it is mine derived from experience. You can not change my experience, but you can change the feeling by showing why I shouldn't feel that way I do. So far, no one has done that. Just people saying I can't feel that way because they see it as wrong. But, just say that it's wrong with out proof isn't really going do any good is it? As skeptics we need proof for changing our opinion, but none has been provided. Also, no one has identified themselves as feminists, so how would I know who is or isn't. Most people here like to argue, so one can not assume whom is what just because they're arguing some point. Devil's advocates and all.
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Being a skeptic doesn't mean postulating that a certain characteristic/entity/whatever exists, unless proven wrong. That's not skepticism, that's the argument from ignorance fallacy. The two aren't even vaguely related.

If you're the one identifying a common characteristic of a group, it's your job to support it, not ours to disprove it. It would be ours if we claimed exceptions to an already established rule -- established meaning properly supported in the first place -- but as long as it's not, it's still up to the one proposing the rule to support it in the first place.

And by support, I mean a better job than:

- "X is a Y, X is a Z, therefore all Y are Z", a.k.a., association fallacy. Just because you find a person who is (or claims to be) a feminist, and they're also holding opinion Z, doesn't mean that all feminists are also holding opinion Z.

- personal anecdotes filtered through selective confirmation, and for bonus points, we don't even know what those anecdotes are, we just need to trust you that you have such experiences

Basically, sorry, but no banana. If you want to be a skeptic, by all means, be one, but then please start actually acting like one. Support your assertions. Hiding behind "skeptic" as some kind of synonym for "I'm right unless you can prove me wrong" just isn't it.
 
Let's change the title of this thread to, "Why shouldn't I hate man-haters?" ;)
 
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Naive1000 said:
I disagree. My feeling may be irrational, but it is mine derived from experience. You can not change my experience, but you can change the feeling by showing why I shouldn't feel that way I do. So far, no one has done that. Just people saying I can't feel that way because they see it as wrong. But, just say that it's wrong with out proof isn't really going do any good is it? As skeptics we need proof for changing our opinion, but none has been provided. Also, no one has identified themselves as feminists, so how would I know who is or isn't. Most people here like to argue, so one can not assume whom is what just because they're arguing some point. Devil's advocates and all.
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No one's saying you can't feel that way. You can feel anything you like, including stupid things. We can't exactly stop you.

I'm a feminist. I think the feminists you quoted are nuts. Now what?
 
Naive1000 said:
Also, no one has identified themselves as feminists, so how would I know who is or isn't. Most people here like to argue, so one can not assume whom is what just because they're arguing some point. Devil's advocates and all.
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BUT, since I forgot to address that and it's kinda important: most of the responses you quoted from that thread also come from people who haven't explicitly identified themselves as feminists, much less as somehow representing the whole group. E.g., the guy who says 30% guys is enough also doesn't say he's feminist. How do you know HE doesn't just like to argue or play Devil's advocate?
 
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Naive1000 said:
I have looked and I'm talking now not ten or twenty years ago. Where are feminists groups speaking out against these type of feminists now? Also, I'm talking about groups not single individuals. As I said, I have nothing against individual feminists.
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You were paying no attention then, either.

There are infamous examples, for example Veronica Vera's "Post-porn Modernist" movement which was an almost direct reaction to Dworkin and MacKinnon. And many others. If you did not hear of them you has your hear in the sand for the last 30 years.
 
Naive1000 said:
I have looked and I'm talking now not ten or twenty years ago. Where are feminists groups speaking out against these type of feminists now? Also, I'm talking about groups not single individuals. As I said, I have nothing against individual feminists.
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Because it is better to speak about what you are FOR, rather than derail your own message with radical idiots' tertiary messages.

It would be nigh impossible to denounce every opinion that you disagree with, even if the people who share this opinion label themselves the same way you do.
 
Naive1000 said:
@KoihimeNakamura: What I said was that all the feminists I've ever personally met where like this, so they seem representative.
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Seriously? All of the (people you've understood to be) feminists have advocated killing men? I find that hard to believe. It would mean that you regularly hang out with psychopaths. It would also mean that you've never encountered a moderate, mainstream feminist. That would be extremely difficult, because they're quite common.
 
since when did it become the standard that your movement must speak out against every individual bad thing done or said by someone claiming to be a member of that movement? I found this standard to be nonsense when it was continually used against moderate muslims, and I find it to be nonsense now.
 
Bit of a self-fulfilling prophesy... Most feminists don't identify themselves as feminists when you meet them. The only people you recognise/label as feminists are radical loony types. Therefore all the feminists you have met have been radical loonies.
 
HA!:roll: I find it hilarious that a person can come on here and say I believe in god or ghosts or a thousand other things and people will break their backs trying to show how their premise is ridiculous, but not one person will try to show how feminism isn't misandrous. So, I guess that I'll have to prove that feminists are. Fine, challenge accepted.

@Lamuella: What's the purpose of your comment? If you have better things to do why even comment except to be condescending? Way to take the high road :rolleyes:.

@HansMustermann: You claim I'm making the association fallacy but provide no proof. I say that all feminists are misandrous and the label of radical is just in their specific philosophy on how they wish to deal with it. [Side Note: Many women post under male names to keep the creeps away. I'm pretty sure the poster self identified as female somewhere on the site. Also, they filter all posts: unless you claim to be a feminist or are a known feminist poster your message doesn't get through.]
RedFem Hub said:
comments policy

The discussions on this blog are reserved for women. Female-born, women-identified women are welcome to take part. This means that no male-born or male-identified person is given a platform to speak in this space.
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@arthwollipot: No, not killing men, but the idea that men are evil predators because of their gender. Rapists by nature. Basically, that men and boys are bad because they're male.

@Professor Yaffle: How do you identify feminists? Do they have tags I don't know about? Maybe special hand signs? Of course, I only count those who call themselves feminists as feminists. There's no other way to know. It seems like a silly argument that I'm just to assume that everyone is a feminist.

@BenBurch: Never heard of Veronica Vera, I look into it.

Oh well, I guess now I have to dig up data to support my supposition, so I shall return (sometime after I wake up :p).
 
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