Why should I not hate God?

[slingblade]

Know? How do you know? As someone who has interacted with God I can't wait to hear this.

Yeah, you keep saying that, and we keep trying to educate you on the fact that evidence only you can access isn't evidence, because it isn't empirical. No, I don't want to do whatever it is one does to have that experience for myself; I want the evidence of yours, of you having had it. But it only exists for you. Therefore, it's just not evidence, sorry.

Also, what's with the coy, "I can't wait to hear this?" routine? You've heard it, are currently hearing it in other threads, but you want to pretend you're virginal on the topic?

 

[Halfcentaur]

*nevermind

 

[MontagK505]

There are realer things than god in this world which can be categorized as abusive, tyrannical, sociopathic, narcistic sociopaths - and God traditionally has been but a fiction made reality by his "representatives" here on Earth. Whether we choose to focus on the mythological embodiment-construct of a former world conquering engine, or look at the mirrored elements of this being in our own era - what it comes down to is human nature.

Our world is inevitably guided by the darkest of our characteristics, for they are most efficient at getting ◊◊◊◊ done; power corrupts, they say - does it not hold that a hypothetical ALL powerful being, such as "God" would be therefore the most corrupt entity in existence? Despite modern day filtering of religion to weed out this contradiction, God has traditionally been understood as the being which created evil as well as good - Satan was just one creation of God's with a perhaps too large ego, the deranged side of his personality you might say; and plagues destroying infant and elderly alike were attributed to an infraction against his desires.

It is said that we are the reflection of our creator; if God were a nice guy, caring, who never harmed; would our survival be based around the destruction of other entities? Would we be an infinitely replicating species on a finite plane?

Does it not make more sense that we live in a world corrupt, because this corruption is inherent in the first principle which started the whole thing? Your call whether or not you choose to hate it, but the characteristics of God are those of the world, and all its creatures - if not individually, at least collectively. This impulsively destructive trait, although perhaps evil to the organism which values its own will and life, is how evolution and progress are ultimately brought about.

Is this a fancy way of saying "Without evil there can be no good"?

Let me add my welcome to the forum. Good first post.

 

[Stomatopoda]

Even some early-Christian groups (notably the Gnostics) couldn't reconcile the mean-tempered and nasty Old Testament God with the kinder, gentler version proposed by the Christians.
They decided that the OT guy wasn't a proper God at all, but rather a rogue, an insane God who had broken away from the "real" gods.

Ah, yes, the Demiurge.

That's my favorite version of the mythology. Much more compelling storyline than the various "vanilla" Christian sects. The video game version with the spaceships and giant mechs was fun, too.

 

[Tricky]

1. Welcome to the forums
2. A few comments.

There are realer things than god in this world which can be categorized as abusive, tyrannical, sociopathic, narcistic sociopaths - and God traditionally has been but a fiction made reality by his "representatives" here on Earth. Whether we choose to focus on the mythological embodiment-construct of a former world conquering engine, or look at the mirrored elements of this being in our own era - what it comes down to is human nature.

Certainly we make our gods in our own image, but...

Our world is inevitably guided by the darkest of our characteristics, for they are most efficient at getting ◊◊◊◊ done;

About this, I must disagree. Indeed the progression of man from loose, nomadic tribes to a global society has relied mostly on working for the common good, empathy, education, protection of the weak and a whole host of "lighter" characteristics. It is true that the darker ones still exist and probably always will, leading to wars, hatred and other ills of our society, but the fact that we live in a society that is more structured than anarchistic says to me that the good guys are winning. Mostly.

power corrupts, they say - does it not hold that a hypothetical ALL powerful being, such as "God" would be therefore the most corrupt entity in existence? Despite modern day filtering of religion to weed out this contradiction, God has traditionally been understood as the being which created evil as well as good - Satan was just one creation of God's with a perhaps too large ego, the deranged side of his personality you might say; and plagues destroying infant and elderly alike were attributed to an infraction against his desires.

Certainly there are these characteristics. Everybody wants Their God to be the baddest badass on the block. As such, he must necessarily kick a lot of butts. But the good side is that we script him to protect those in his hood. Mostly.

It is said that we are the reflection of our creator; if God were a nice guy, caring, who never harmed; would our survival be based around the destruction of other entities? Would we be an infinitely replicating species on a finite plane?

The whole idea of what a "nice guy" is changes constantly. I believe that this change parallels the growth of our society. Humans protect those most like themselves. Naturally, the gods they manufacture will do likewise. What changes through time is our concept of empathy. We grow much less afraid of somebody because they come from another villiage or country. We become more and more able to look past superficial differences of skin, facial features, language and custom. We're not "there" yet, to be sure, but we draw closer. Correspondinly, our Gods grow nicer and more tolerant. The baby-murdering Old Testiment God is given little more than lip service by most Christians. The "save the meek" Jesus of the New Testiment grows more temperate every decade. Mostly.

Does it not make more sense that we live in a world corrupt, because this corruption is inherent in the first principle which started the whole thing? Your call whether or not you choose to hate it, but the characteristics of God are those of the world, and all its creatures - if not individually, at least collectively. This impulsively destructive trait, although perhaps evil to the organism which values its own will and life, is how evolution and progress are ultimately brought about.

Again, I must disagree. While these destructive traits do exist, experience teaches me that they are the controlling urge only in a minority of individuals. The majority builds, teaches, joins, and grows.

 

[Tricky]

Even Satan will have to admit his own guilt at the Final Day, and proclaim the Judgement of God to be Righteous and True.

Why? What happens if Satan refuses to admit guilt? Will God FORCE Satan to admit it, even against his will? Is that the sort of creature you worship, one who rules by despotic power? Can you understand why the worship of such a creature is unpalatable to people who believe in freedom?

 

[Stomatopoda]

Why? What happens if Satan refuses to admit guilt? Will God FORCE Satan to admit it, even against his will? Is that the sort of creature you worship, one who rules by despotic power? Can you understand why the worship of such a creature is unpalatable to people who believe in freedom?

Nah. He never forces anyone to do anything. He gives a choice between doing what he wants, or eternal torment. See, totally different!

 

[Complexity]

Nah. He never forces anyone to do anything. He gives a choice between doing what he wants, or eternal torment. See, totally different!

Eternal torment, please.

Much better than being stuck with the goodie-two-shoes 'worshipping' that monster for eternity.

 

[Minoosh]

Because he doesn't exist.

Of course this is the obvious answer. However as one of the minority on the JREF forums who is a vague theist (Deist?) - vague to the point of near-agnosticism - I'd say, if you hate God, shout it to the spheres. If you're pissed off, find an appropriate place where you can scream as loud as you want at this incorrigible SOB. Maybe He needs a good telling-off.

I picked up an Episcopalian pamphlet called "Getting Angry at God Through Prayer" years ago and still have it. It resonated.

p.s. No offense to Mary for calling God an SOB - if God impregnated Mary and gave birth to Himself so he could offer Himself as a blood sacrifice to Himself. Christianity does not particularly resonate, except as an extended metaphor. I'd like the religion better if it were about this poor pacifist schmuck who got crucified for telling people to love their enemies - and then stayed dead.

p.p.s. I stole that part about giving birth to Himself etc., from someone on another thread.

 

[mutile]

you only suffer for an insignificant fraction of your life, eternity is where its at.

 

[ReluctantPuppet]

Thanks for the warm welcome all; glad to join ya!

Is this a fancy way of saying "Without evil there can be no good"?

In a nutshell, yea ;p "Evil" is as fundamental a part of human nature and civilization as good - both linked eternally to our endeavors on this planet.

I agree with you Tricky, in that as the order of things has been refined there has been a gradual shift towards a violence which is suppressed and less apparent, and that our conception of God has reflected that shift. Based on my day to day interactions with people I would also say that most are basically good. However although the majority builds, teaches, joins and grows there is a dark side which is just as inherent to these actions as the good. We pollute as we build, manipulate through information, and join together to subjugate others. There is a balance - the negative grows in proportion to the positive and and neither element outweighs the other - it really depends on your place in this reality as to how you experience its qualities.

 

[Pup]

I'd say, if you hate God, shout it to the spheres. If you're pissed off, find an appropriate place where you can scream as loud as you want at this incorrigible SOB. Maybe He needs a good telling-off.

I picked up an Episcopalian pamphlet called "Getting Angry at God Through Prayer" years ago and still have it. It resonated.

I think there are at least two kinds of hating or being angry at God (the Judean-Christian God, since that's what we're mostly talking about in this thread, or any other god, for that matter).

There's the kind of anger where a person actually thinks God might be real, or used to believe and wants to quit believing but can't quite give it all up, or otherwise has some kind of genuine anger focussed on God. Sort of like a divorced couple, who still have strong feelings for each other, even if the only feeling is anger and rejection. That pamphlet would be aimed at them.

Then there's the kind of person who has no real anger, because there's no more point in being angry at God than any other fictional character. He's not their spouse that they love, or their ex-spouse they hate, because he's not a real thing. But just like at all the pro-wrestling, fan fiction, Harry Potter and English lit forums, one can still talk as if a fictional character were real, and express one's opinions about him, and boo the bad guy, because it's interesting and entertaining.

I think that some theists mistake the latter for the former, because it's hard for them to conceive there are people who really, truly, aren't all emotional about their god. Thinking that all atheists are seriously angry at God, fits more comfortably with a believer's world view, than thinking that some people just don't take their God seriously.

 

[Halfcentaur]

I think it is important to keep in mind the word "hate" was applied in the OP here towards the literal God of the Old Testament, not a deist interpretation of the Judeo/Christian God. People seem to be coming into this thread and offering a defense for a God that is not the literal God who tells Israelites to murder and rape the females of another tribe.

 

[mikeyx]

If I were to accept that everything in The Bible is true why should I not hate the abusive, tyrannical, sociopathic, narcissistic psychopath the God portrayed within clearly is? Why should I not do everything in my power to help anyone or anything that would oppose that brutal, monstrous, blood thirsty Sky Daddy?


Anyone?

Old testament or new, or just the same ol Atheist whining about something they claim not to care about?

 

[DC]

Old testament or new, or just the same ol Atheist whining about something they claim not to care about?

Who said Atheists dont care about it? Constant religious indoctrination and propaganda makes us care.

 

[HansMustermann]

Old testament or new, or just the same ol Atheist whining about something they claim not to care about?

Depends on the level of "care". It's not an all or nothing situation, you know? Most things that involve humans aren't. And "care" about which PART of it? It's not a trivial question, and again it's not all or nothing.

E.g., I may not give half a damn about characters like John Galt or Howard Roark per se, what with them being fictive people in fictive settings, but

A) I can still point out their flaws, as described in the text. E.g., Roark's idea that not only a brutal rape is some kind of declaration of love, but pretty much the only true declaration of love, and the fact that he actually does go ahead and do just that, can still strike me as immoral and deranged. And

B) if someone wanted us all to change our lives to fit what's in those deranged books or what those deranged characters want, I might care about that.

The same applies to most deities, basically.

 

[Pup]

Who said Atheists dont care about it? Constant religious indoctrination and propaganda makes us care.

Exactly. I care greatly when people use strange beliefs to pass laws that affect me. That means some religions have a direct impact on my life, others still cause collateral damage, while others are just an anthropological curiosity, but sometimes still interesting.

 

[Travis]

Old testament or new, or just the same ol Atheist whining about something they claim not to care about?

I can care about what I want to care about.

And are you insinuating that the God of the Old Testament is not the same God of the New Testament? Or that the same God underwent a severe personality change?

If that's the case then there might be a new reason to oppose this God. Who wants someone in that position of power that is prone to emotional hysterics?

 

[glaxo]

More people have died for jesus than jesus ever died for.
Feel free to insert any other god/deity/tyrannical religious thingamajiggie's name in jesus' place.
If god were real, you absolutely should hate it, imo (to address the OP).
I even hate the unreal ones (not exactly true, I really hate that so many people believe in these less than poor fictional characters).

 

[Minoosh]

I think that some theists mistake the latter for the former, because it's hard for them to conceive there are people who really, truly, aren't all emotional about their god. Thinking that all atheists are seriously angry at God, fits more comfortably with a believer's world view, than thinking that some people just don't take their God seriously.

I wonder if you can confidently predict what a believer's world view would be in this case. It's not that I expect atheists or anyone else to be angry at God - only that I've experienced anger that can't really be directed at anything more specific than "the universe." Sometimes I talk to this entity, sometimes I yell at it.

When non-theists are angry is it always at something tangible?