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Why science must eventually reform

lifegazer

Philosopher
Joined
Oct 9, 2003
Messages
5,047
Basic philosophy quickly differentiates between the human-experience and the reality of 'our universe': subjective inner-experience as opposed to objective actual-reality. They are not the same.
For those of you of a level to understand this, let's examine why science needs to reform...

Scientists are human too. They observe the universe through sense-based experience. They cannot escape their own experience of the universe.
They cannot experiment with or contemplate anything other than the sensed-universe. Even their tools and templates exist within their experience and measure parameters and discern laws (order) amongst that experience.
Every scientific understanding or theory of 'the universe' should relate to this fact that the universe we observe is Self-experienced... but it doesn't (hence the need for reform - more later).
No science relates to a 'real world' because no scientist can observe a 'real world'.
In the whole history of philosophy, there is not a single sound-argument which promotes the reality of our universe beyond the experience of it (btw, such a "sound-argument" is not something which negates the irrational nature of individual religious ideas, or 'religion' as a whole).

What is science doing when it denounces religion? Perhaps philosophy can denounce religion, but science cannot. Certainly, science cannot denounce the idea that 'God' - The Creator of All that is experienced - created this universal experience.

Closely observe science. It's theories ASSUME the realistic nature of everything that is observed. Consequently, it's theories mirror this ASSUMPTION.

Consequently, some current theories run-along the line that 'the universe' of real objects existing in real space-time came into being from and extended into NOTHING. Philosophically, such theories can only be judged - with all due respect - as retarded. Such are the consequences of assuming a reality which we cannot experience nor rationalise.
I'll just mention some more important rational blunders:-

1) 'Brains' (objects within experience), are the cause of experience!!!
2) QM - real particles within the real universe, have the ability to emerge from nothing. Yet no scientist has ever observed a real particle!!!!!!!!!
3) Science does not understand why Relativity is at-odds with Newton's Laws of motion. Well, the answer is obvious - Newton was talking about the motion of absolute-objects in an absolute-universe... whereas Einstein (albeit ignorantly) discovered that The Self, alone, is 'absolute'... and all experienced-objects are relative to IT.

Science has progressed so far that it's walked up it's own ass via assumptions of the reality of the world. It's been corrupted by such assumptions. It's theories revolve around such assumptions. Any scientist that mentions 'God' is systematically ridiculed and castigated. Only scientists such as Dawkins are popular amongst the materialistic masses.

It's gotten beyond a joke - not just because it's wrong (science should not be based upon assumption, like the religions it's members have consistently mocked) - but because until 'science' formally reforms to a position obvious from this post, humanity will not progress.
Okay, religion - as we know it - is not the answer. But neither is science - as we know it.

Reform is inevitable. What say thee?
 
You've said all this before. It's all been trashed before. Just because you took a hiatus doesn't mean we've forgotten this.

But if you really want to start back at square one, ALL OVER AGAIN...

Gee.... humanity has progressed better with science than without it. What does that tell you?
 
You've said all this before. It's all been trashed before. Just because you took a hiatus doesn't mean we've forgotten this.

But if you really want to start back at square one, ALL OVER AGAIN...

Gee.... humanity has progressed better with science than without it. What does that tell you?
I'm not saying that science is a waste of time. I'm saying that it cannot denounce religion nor the concept of 'God (The Creator). I'm also saying that it needs to reform for reasons mentioned in my OP.
 
I'm not saying that science is a waste of time. I'm saying that it cannot denounce religion nor the concept of 'God (The Creator). I'm also saying that it needs to reform for reasons mentioned in my OP.

Nor does Science denounce religion or the concept of God. Rather, Science has declared it has little to say on these subjects, as evidence is lacking. Period.

As for the 'reasons' mentioned above, they've all been thoroughly trounced before. Completely. Repeatedly.

Or would you like to finally finish the topic, started shortly before your Fall, and provide your assumption-free premises? Luckily for you, that topic has finally fallen into archival status... but you could still answer Piscavore's question instead...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41341

BTW - do brains exist, lifegazer?
 
Exclamations are more than justified in a post explaining why science needs a revolution.
Perhaps you were hoping I would whisper so as not to be heard.

Exclamations are irrelevant clap-trap. Text messages are neither shouted nor whispered. And a loud proclamation is no more true than a quiet one.

First, do you understand what science is? Let's start from there.

Give us your understanding of what science is. Completely.
 
All science ever claimed to do was generate a framework of how the world as we seem to experience it appears to work based on our observations. There may not be a "world" out there, but our observations don't seem to betray that.

What is the definition of science you are going with in your original post?
 
\In the whole history of philosophy, there is not a single sound-argument which promotes the reality of our universe beyond the experience of it (btw, such a "sound-argument" is not something which negates the irrational nature of individual religious ideas, or 'religion' as a whole).
Ah, who said that it does?

Before we start fixing something, we should make sure that there is a problem.
What is science doing when it denounces religion?
I seem to recall a number of recent events where religion has denounced science, but I can't seem to recall the reverse. What scientific theory denounces religion?

Perhaps philosophy can denounce religion, but science cannot. Certainly, science cannot denounce the idea that 'God' - The Creator of All that is experienced - created this universal experience.
Maybe, maybe not. I still don't recall the theorm that addresses 'God' - The Creator of All that is experienced

Closely observe science. It's theories ASSUME the realistic nature of everything that is observed. Consequently, it's theories mirror this ASSUMPTION.
This is true. Every idea is based on some assumption. Do I need to remind you what assumption your ideas in the past have been based on? Or perhaps even the assumptions your OP?

Consequently, some current theories run-along the line that 'the universe' of real objects existing in real space-time came into being from and extended into NOTHING. Philosophically, such theories can only be judged - with all due respect - as retarded.
That may have something to do with this overly simplistic summary you've presented. If you think this is all there is to it, you've presented a strawman argument. If you understand that there is more to it, I'd have to ask where, specifically, the theory goes wrong.

Such are the consequences of assuming a reality which we cannot experience nor rationalise.
um, you just said that it was the sensed world that we assume is real is something we, well, sense. How is that not experiencing it? As for the rationalizing, that's what science is: the application of reason to what we experience.

I'll just mention some more important rational blunders:-

1) 'Brains' (objects within experience), are the cause of experience!!!
Interesting. Who claims this?
2) QM - real particles within the real universe, have the ability to emerge from nothing. Yet no scientist has ever observed a real particle!!!!!!!!!
uh, no.
3) Science does not understand why Relativity is at-odds with Newton's Laws of motion. Well, the answer is obvious - Newton was talking about the motion of absolute-objects in an absolute-universe... whereas Einstein (albeit ignorantly) discovered that The Self, alone, is 'absolute'... and all experienced-objects are relative to IT.
heh. ah, I'll have to admit that I've missed your imaginativeness. Scientists understand exactly why Relativity is at odds with Newton's laws of motions. In fact, the two theories agree at slow speeds.

Science has progressed so far that it's walked up it's own ass via assumptions of the reality of the world. It's been corrupted by such assumptions. It's theories revolve around such assumptions. Any scientist that mentions 'God' is systematically ridiculed and castigated. Only scientists such as Dawkins are popular amongst the materialistic masses.
Evidence of this?

Reform is inevitable. What say thee?
Well, let's make sure something is broken before we try to fix it. Where does science denounce religion?
 
No offense but

Exclamations are more than justified in a post explaining why science needs a revolution.
Perhaps you were hoping I would whisper so as not to be heard.

drivel is drivel is drivel.

Science (at least in my understanding of it having done and taught it a number of years now) assumes only that for something to be useful/correct/true in science it must be testable BY STANDARD REPLICATIBLE METHODS. Since none of these methods are big secrets, complaining that scientists - and sceptics - won't accept the "truth"(well, what you seem to be willing to accept without any proof to be the truth) is silly.

I do not claim that what you believe is true isn't - though I really, REALLY doubt that any of it is - I merely note that it does not meet logically developed methods for being verifiable.

Also, loudness does not equal truth (see J. Goebbells on that topic), it just equals loudness. Truth shines out quietly but with persistance.
 
I thought you were going to show us all with your big thing you had planned to prove you are god?

Here, I'll quote you if your absolute memory is off, mr. absolute god:

Few of you here (if any) want an absolute-God (a God who is the totality of existence) to exist. Why? Because it spells the end of your human self. It heralds the end of your measly lives and destroys everything contained within them, including your measly families and your measly set of friends. Not to mention your ****ing measly countries, you nationalistic dogs.
Yes, nationalism - next to the idolisation of finite Gods - is the numero-uno culprit of all human affections.
Your ignorance is pathetic and yet responsible for all borders/division and war.
Do I care that I offend you? LOL. Do I ****.
This is the end. What are 'they' (the ****ing poxy JREF establishment) gonna do to me? Ban me? LOL. What a laugh. Sheep leading the lambs. How sad. How truly sad.

It's over. It's over for you and it's over for me. The stupidity and hypocrisy of this place stinks. That's why I'm going. The sheep are akin to parrots and the lambs are akin to blank-tape recording parrot-speak for a future date.

source.


Now you told us:

No. All or nothing. Sunday. Something important happens after that and then I will only return if it is of importance to the people here. But I don't envision that happening unless I find that faith I spoke of earlier.
Best wishes to you, since we have spoke many times.

source.


Which seems to suggest you would only return here if it is of important to us here.

What's so important that you're back now?

Or are you just trolling again?
 
I thought you were going to show us all with your big thing you had planned to prove you are god?

Here, I'll quote you if your absolute memory is off, mr. absolute god:



source.


Now you told us:



source.


Which seems to suggest you would only return here if it is of important to us here.

What's so important that you're back now?

Or are you just trolling again?

Glad you mentioned this, because I was about to.

Well, LG, and welcome back, BTW, what say you?


`Bout time we had a proper troll around here. You shoulda SEEN the stuff that filled the void after you left. Not quality at all.
 
...until 'science' formally reforms to a position obvious from this post, humanity will not progress.
Would you care to state what this "obvious" position is?

Science studies the observable universe. It makes the assumption that the observations that we can make are consistently related to real objects and events.

What is your alternative?
 
Reform is inevitable. What say thee?

I say you are an idiot who doesn't understand basic philosophy of science, and doesn't listen when other people try to teach this to him.

Reform is not inevitable because there is no reform of science that can fix the problem.

What do you think science can do apart from admit there are some questions it cannot answer? Nothing, Darren. It can do NOTHING.

Go and read "What is this thing called Science?" by Alan Chalmers and just for once, you might actually learn something.


:(
 
Lifegazer,

Before you can claim science needs to be reformed you first need to understand the current state of play regarding how science currently defines itself philosophically. You do not know this, or anything about it. You do not know anything about Karl Popper or Imre Lakotos and their attempts to define what science is. You do not know anything about Thomas Kuhn and Paul Feyerabend and their deconstruction of the work of Popper and Lakotos. You know nothing whatsoever about the current state of debate in the aftermath of the work of these great men. In short, you are an ignorant little ***** who has about as much right to be calling for a reform of science as Theo Walcott has the right to be part of England's World Cup squad. i.e. none at all.

Let me give you a clue, nappy boy: science is already unable to define itself philosophically. Hence, there is nothing to reform. Science has fuzzy borders already. And there is no way to draw non-fuzzy ones, apart from to declare science to be equivalent to materialism, which is presumably exactly what you don't want. There is no point in reforming science if the thing you are left with after the reformation isn't science anymore. Now read this paragraph again, twice.
 
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You seem to understand the idea of reform very clearly. Why don't you setup a new 'reformed science centre' and see how much funding you can obtain. I'm sure you will soon be able to prove all the close-minded people on this forum wrong.
 

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