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why Nuclear Physics cannot be entirelly correct

The question is:
in which those forces spin-interaction force fits in ?




Wow !!!!
:D:D:D

This is a New Physics.

Are you telling us that there are 5 forces of nature?

Congratulations.

Now he have 5 fundamental forces in nature:

1- gravitational

2- electromagnetic

3- weak force

4- strong force

5- spin-interaction


OK, now I am satisfied.
Thanks

Since I'm not a physicist, Pedrone will probably ignore me. However, based on what I read from the physicists, the spin interaction modifies the first 4 (well known) forces quoted above.

The quote above, at least to me, seems intellectually dishonest. Isn't this like saying "the force of gravity is modified or determined by the mass of 2 bodies, therefore mass is a force"??????
 
Ben M,
the way you calculate it does not matter.

Says who?

What is of interest is to fit the force of spin-interaction to the known laws of Physics

It's already in there.

1- gravity

2- electromagnetic

3- weak force

4- strong force

The question is:
in which those forces spin-interaction force fits in ?

It's not a separate force. Spin-dependence is a detail of the ordinary forces. You are incorrectly re-labeling it as a new force.
 
It seems to me from reading the thread that spin is important to particle interactions in the same way that the shape of a ball is important to the way it bounces: if it's shaped like a football it will bounce differently from if it's shaped like a basketball. But that doesn't suggest that shape is a force.

Perhaps someone could correct me if I'm wrong, but is that about what this thread boils down to?
 
In quantum mechanics, the Hamiltonian is what describes the energy of a system. It's also what tells us how our system evolves with time. When you talk about "interactions", what you frequently mean are terms in your Hamiltonian which depend on the state of the two things which are interacting. So if we have a term in our Hamiltonian which depends on the spin states of two particles, we can call that a spin-spin interaction.

The problem here is that "exchange" interactions don't actually show up in the Hamiltonian. More on that below.



Not at all.

Let's actually back up a bit and discuss where Pauli exclusion comes from: exchange symmetry.

Let's say I have two distinguishable particles. We'll label the position of particle 1 as x1, and the position of particle 2 as x2. Let's say particle 1 is in state a, with wave function A(x1), and particle 2 is in state b with wave function B(x2). I can then write their combined wave function F(x1,x2) as a simple product F(x1,x2) = A(x1)B(x2). More complex wave functions (ie, sums of products) are possible, but this will do for our example.

Now, what if I have two indistinguishable particles? Well, I should still be able to write a wave function of the form F(x1,x2). But the particles are identical, so it shouldn't matter if I switch places. So F(x1,x2) = F(x2,x1). But actually, that's not quite right. It shouldn't matter to any observation if I switch places, but since observables depend on F^2, not F, then I should really have F(x1,x2) = +/- F(x2,x1). It turns out that for bosons, it's always a +, and for fermions it's always a -. This is known as exchange symmetry: when I exchange the particles, I get either the same wave function or its negative.

Now, I still want one particle to be in state a and 1 particle to be in state b. So I'd like something along the lines of F(x1,x2) = A(x1)B(x2). But that doesn't satisfy the above exchange symmetry. So instead I need something like this:
F(x1,x2) = A(x1)B(x2) +/- B(x1)A(x2)
where again, the sign difference is for bosons vs. fermions. Now this difference may not at first glance look like it matters much, but it actually matters a great deal. For example, if we're dealing with bosons, then A = B is an acceptable solution. But if we're dealing with fermions, then obviously A = B produces F = 0, which is not a valid solution. That's where Fermi exclusion comes from.

So how does spin enter into this? Well, if A and B include spin, then I can make the spin parts different but the spatial part the same. Conversely, if the spatial parts are different then I can have the spin parts equal.

So now let's bring this back to our previous discussion. Let's say I have a Hamiltonian for two identical charged particles which repel each other. The "interaction" is purely Coulomb repulsion, meaning that the Hamiltonian itself has no terms involving either spin. The Hamiltonian only deals with the spatial wave function. But spin is still very relevant in such a case, because spin constrains the possible spatial wave states we can have. So in a sense, the energy depends on the spin state even though the spin is not part of the Hamiltonian. So in one sense, there's no spin-spin interaction. But one could still call this a spin-spin interaction. At this point it's a semantic issue. The original Hamiltonian contains no spin-dependent terms but the energies of our states are still different for different spins. But generally, this wouldn't be called a spin interaction, it would be called an exchange interaction. And that is different from something like a magnetic dipole-dipole interaction, where you have spin dependence directly in the original Hamiltonian regardless of exchange symmetry.

And it can get even muddier. If one is not interested in all possible states, but only the states a particle is likely to occupy under some conditions of interest, one can often write an effective Hamiltonian which is different from our original Hamiltonian but produces the same energies for the particular states of interest. And such an effective Hamiltonian might even include a spin-dependent term even though the original Hamiltonian does not. If the effective Hamiltonian has a spin-dependent term but the original does not, is there a "spin interaction"? Again, this is somewhat of a semantic debate, and I don't generally care about semantic debates. As long as one defines one's terms and stays consistent, I'm pretty flexible. But as above, this would still often be called an exchange interaction if in fact it originated from the exchange symmetry restrictions I discussed above.

But none of this means that pedrone is right about the spin dependence of the interaction being electromagnetic. It isn't for nuclear scattering.

Thanks!
 
Normally I would love to see Sol Invictus do a royal smackdown on this thread, but I can see it would be wasted effort...
 
Ben M,
the way you calculate it does not matter.

What is of interest is to fit the force of spin-interaction to the known laws of Physics


If you cannot fit it to the known laws of Physics, your calculation means NOTHING.
Your calculation is only a quantification of a physical phenomenon.
Actually you are unable to explain the phenomenon, and you dont know to explain how it occurs, because you dont know to explain it from the known laws of Physics.



Then, let's continue:



Ben M,
according to Modern Physics there are 4 fundamental forces in Nature:

1- gravity

2- electromagnetic

3- weak force

4- strong force

The question is:
in which those forces spin-interaction force fits in ?



In another words:
What is the NATURE of the spin-interaction force ?

Is it its nature:

gravitational ?

electromagnetic ?

weak force

strong force ?

Please tell us what is its nature.

Waving words aorund does not mean you understand them.
 
Spin-dependence is a detail of the ordinary forces.

Ben, this makes no sense.

A phenomenon (as the spin, or any other) cannot interact through all fundamental forces.

The magnitudes of forces is:

a) strong force = 1

b) electromagnetism = 1/137

c) weak force = 1/106
d) gravity = 1/1040


If the spin interacts through the gravity, it cannot interact through the strong force, which is 1040 times stronger.

If the spin interacts through the electromagnetism, it cannot interact through the strong force, which is 137 times stronger.

Atually the physicists do not know what is the mechanisms through which the spin interacts.
So, as they do not know how it interacts, that's why they propose only equations that describe the spin-interactions. But they dont know how the spin-interaction phenomenon occurs.


In the book Quantum Physics, Eisberg an Resnick write:
"Though we dispose nowadays of a sufficient complete assembly of information about the nuclear forces, we realize that they are too much complexes, not having been possible up to now to use this cknowledge for building an extensive theory of the nuclei. In other words, we cannot explain the whole properties of nuclei in function of the properties of the nuclear forces that actuate on their protons and neutrons".

So, there are fundamental unanswered questions in Nuclear Physics. And the spin-interaction is one among them.
 
Last edited:
If the spin interacts through the gravity, it cannot interact through the strong force, which is 1040 times stronger.

This is simply wrong.

Atually the physicists do not know what is the mechanisms through which the spin interacts.

Yes, they do. You, however, clearly do not.

So, there are fundamental unanswered questions in Nuclear Physics.

I'm sure there are. That is the nature of science. If there aren't unanswered questions, it's because you've stopped bothering to ask.

But the real questions that actual nuclear physicists have are totally different than the questions that you, who know no physics, are asking. This surprises no one else but you.
 
Ben, this makes no sense.

I'm sorry you do not understand it. It sounds like you do not want to.

A phenomenon (as the spin, or any other) cannot interact through all fundamental forces.

Gibberish.

a) strong force = 1
b) electromagnetism = 1/137
c) weak force = 1/106d) gravity = 1/1040

Those numbers oversimplify the actual meaning of the different forces.

So, as they do not know how it interacts, that's why they propose only equations that describe the spin-interactions. But they dont know how the spin-interaction phenomenon occurs.

I confess! You have uncovered my lies again. It was that blackguard Gell-Mann! He speaks to me via the aether; he makes me post horrible, horrible lies. He is a threat to us all. The truth is---you are the spin. Search within yourself. It will come ... no time, I must fly !
 
I confess! You have uncovered my lies again. It was that blackguard Gell-Mann! He speaks to me via the aether; he makes me post horrible, horrible lies. He is a threat to us all. The truth is---you are the spin. Search within yourself. It will come ... no time, I must fly !

Tut. You could at least have picked someone who was dead to converse with.
 
Pedrone: I'd say my requests thus far have been quite polite but my patience is running a bit short. Until you correct me I think it's fair to say that you are worse off than the other laymen in this conversation because you are going against the conventional wisdom and have nothing to back it up with aside from bickering over definitions.

Please, post something which actually backs up your claims aside from arguments over definitions...How about a simple test to prove that your claims are correct. So far you've ignored my requests so I'm getting the distinct impression that you have no interest in the truth of your claims. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. Did you go to Wikipedia university for your degree in physics?
 
I confess! You have uncovered my lies again. It was that blackguard Gell-Mann! He speaks to me via the aether; he makes me post horrible, horrible lies. He is a threat to us all. The truth is---you are the spin. Search within yourself. It will come ... no time, I must fly
Ben M, lets change the subject.

Is there a theory which calculates the binding energy of lightest nuclei ?

I would like to know if there is theoretical calculation for the following nuclei:

1H2 , 1H3, 2He3, 2He4, 4Be8, 5B10, 6C12, 7N14, 8O16

Please tell me their theoretical binding energy, compared with the experimental data, and the nuclear model from which the calculation was made.

As Nuclear Physics is so good as all you claim, I suppose there is a theoretical calculation agree to the experimental data.
 
Ben, this makes no sense.

A phenomenon (as the spin, or any other) cannot interact through all fundamental forces.

Which of the fundamental forces does not interact through distance?

Like distance, spin is a property that influences the interactions of all the forces. There's nothing problematic or contradictory about this.
 
Serious question: why do you think that you (obviously a layman) are correct and every physicist in the world is wrong ? What, exactly, makes your knowledge of the subject matter better ?

Please answer the question pedrone,and please answer mine. Where did you study physics?
 

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