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Why not torture?

Mirrorglass said:
Yes, they do. There is no difference. The police have been given the right to do things that are illegal to individuals, in order to protect the general public. Entirely analogously, they could be given the right to use torture on suspects in special cases.

In fact, the police do have such a right; interrogation techniques used by the police are meant to cause discomfort and even low level physical pain. It is only a matter of scale; usually, violence requiring physical contact isn't allowed. But even if it were, the nature of the situation wouldn't change.

Saying that the police following the process aren't engaged in theft or extortion is true - but only because we have different names for those things when they are done by officials. We could call torture administered by the police "heavy interrogation"; if a law was passed, making it legal, we probably would. Would you then accept that the police were not, in fact, engaged in torture, just as they aren't engaged in theft and extortion?



Indeed. My problem is that in certain cases, we as a society willfully refuse to see the benefit.
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Just think of all the witches we could find.
 
To all proponents of torture, what is your preferred method?

Waterboarding, electrodes to the genitals, pulling out fingernails, stappado, the Iron Maiden, the rack, thumbscrews or crucifixion.
 
tsig said:
Why do you think you won't be the victim of the state torturer?
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For the same reason I think I won't be the victim of the state policeman, or the state tax auditor, or the state executioner, or the state truant officer, or the state animal control agent.

Also because, torture or no, I patently don't live in that kind of state. Now, if I lived in Soviet Russia, or Communist East Germany, I would live every day in fear of being the victim of the state torturer, and the state policeman, and the state secret-policeman, even though I worked hard through every waking hour to do nothing the state might find objectionable (or, I'd like to think, because I spent every waking hour plotting in secret against such a state).

But that's not the state I live in. As for becoming the victim of the torturers of the state I do live in? It's possible, I suppose. Accidents happen. Misunderstandings happen. Bureaucracies make mistakes.

But the state I live in, there's a death penalty. I could be given a lethal injection or a deadly electric shock, for a crime I didn't commit, and I should be worried about a little waterboarding?

The state I live in, the police are armed with deadly weapons. I could be thrown down on a train station platform and shot to death by an officer of the law, and I should be worried about a little waterboarding?

Mind you, I don't commit capital crimes, nor felonies of any kind, nor do I associate with people who do, so being mistaken for someone who deserves the death penalty is not really something I worry about anyway.

And while I do travel by rail from time to time, I generally keep to myself and don't cause any trouble or attract any kind of negative attention. So being accidentally targeted by armed police officers is also not something I really worry about.

I admit I have no idea what activities you think might attract the attention of the state torturer, but whatever they are, I'll bet I haven't done them, and that I don't know anybody who has. So waterboarding is understandably low on my list of things I worry my government might do to me.

But who knows? I may disappear to Gitmo tomorrow, and spend the rest of my days being waterboarded and otherwise brutalized. Because, well, the government sometimes just up and does that to people. It could happen to anyone.
 
tsig said:
If torture produces truth then witches are real.
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You're assuming that all torturers are trying to produce truth.

If you assume that if torture produces what the torturer wants, then you conclude that torturers who want a witch will get a witch, and torturers who want the truth will get the truth.
 
theprestige said:
You're assuming that all torturers are trying to produce truth.

If you assume that if torture produces what the torturer wants, then you conclude that torturers who want a witch will get a witch, and torturers who want the truth will get the truth.
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So the best way to get the truth is to inflict pain.
 
Mirrorglass said:
Indeed. My problem is that in certain cases, we as a society willfully refuse to see the benefit.
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We as a society have evaluated the cost vs benefit and we as a society had decided that the benefit, which is questionable, does not justify the cost.

You are arguing for exceptions and rule-bending when a possible benefit is perceived. Exceptions and rule-bending almost always lead to abuse of process and promotion of self interest. Not good for a government based on rule of law.
 
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fishbob said:
We as a society have evaluated the cost vs benefit and we as a society had decided that the benefit, which is questionable, does not justify the cost.

You are arguing for exceptions and rule-bending when a possible benefit is perceived. Exceptions and rule-bending almost always lead to abuse of process and promotion of self interest. Not good for a government based on rule of law.
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Evidence?
 
theprestige said:
No; the best way to get truth varies with circumstances. But now you're moving the goalposts.

Will you at least admit that interrogations intended to obtain confessions are not necessarily intended to obtain the truth?
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No, traditionally, the purpose of torture is to produce false confessions. This certainly seems to have been the case with with the Shrub regime, which was desperate to extract false confessions linking Iraq with 9/11 and al Qaeda.

Mirrorglass said:
Evidence?
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You think it doesn't?

Mirrorglass said:
Since you think no criminal should ever be punished, how do you expect society to function?
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So, are you saying that torture is a form of punishment now?
 
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theprestige said:
But the state I live in, there's a death penalty. I could be given a lethal injection or a deadly electric shock, for a crime I didn't commit, and I should be worried about a little waterboarding?
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I invite you to try a "little waterboarding". I'll administer it, if you like.
 
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JihadJane said:
You think it doesn't?´
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Not necessarily. I've given several examples of exceptions to rules that, to my knowledge, have not lead to anything like what you suggest. And anyway, it's you making the positive claim - it's up to you to back it up.


So, are you saying that torture is a form of punishment now?
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Nah, that was a silly strawman. I'm hoping tsig will realize this and reflect on his own statements.
 
theprestige said:
No; the best way to get truth varies with circumstances. But now you're moving the goalposts.

Will you at least admit that interrogations intended to obtain confessions are not necessarily intended to obtain the truth?
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Well someone is moving the goalposts.

If torture produces truth then why don't we use it all the time. Think of all the money we could save on police investigations,
 
Mirrorglass said:
Not necessarily. I've given several examples of exceptions to rules that, to my knowledge, have not lead to anything like what you suggest. And anyway, it's you making the positive claim - it's up to you to back it up.




Nah, that was a silly strawman. I'm hoping tsig will realize this and reflect on his own statements.
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If you believe that torture will make people tell the truth then you should believe in witches because many confessed to witchcraft under torture.
 
tsig said:
If you believe that torture will make people tell the truth then you should believe in witches because many confessed to witchcraft under torture.
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So you believe that if something will work in one situation, it must necessarily work in every possible situation?
 
Mirrorglass said:
Not necessarily. I've given several examples of exceptions to rules that, to my knowledge, have not lead to anything like what you suggest. And anyway, it's you making the positive claim - it's up to you to back it up.
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What claim? I haven't suggested anything.




Nah, that was a silly strawman. I'm hoping tsig will realize this and reflect on his own statements.
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Your strawman?
 
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