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Why not hemp?

It's not that the facts about hemp are invalidated. It's just that no one cares about them if it is just potheads who are the ones complaining.

In a way, I think they are.

For example, hemp is often touted as an ecological cure-all. Now, we have some paper companies and planted forests for paper fiber around here, and I'm well aware of the ecological dangers, but trees do have two things in their favor:

1) They take years to grow.
2) The most economical process for planting them does not involve tilling.

In contrast, hemp advocates claim that you can get four hemp crops per year, and it's a fact that the most economic way to do that involves tilling the soil.

From an ecological standpoint, I pick the trees, and I think you have to be really stoned to think otherwise.

This is not to deny that it may be possible to cultivate hemp in an ecologically sound manner, but there's certainly nothing inherent about the plant that makes it so.
 
Why is it unbelievable? Look at the auto industry. Chrysler, GM and Ford basically colluded and crushed Studebaker. The Tucker was one of the most advanced automobiles ever conceived, but Preston Tucker was driven into bankruptcy, and his plans destroyed. Eddie Rickenbacker put together a car with brakes on all four wheels back in the 20's, and Ford and GM ran him out of business. This is nothing new.

Take a look at the history of Standard Oil, then try and tell me it's unbelievable.
You're right, its not unbelievable. I was just really annoyed because while these illegal things happen, its not dealt with. And hypocrisy just really annoys me.

I don't know the details of everything you mentioned -- got some goggling to do...

BTW, my mom owned a Studebaker. It was her first car and to hear her talk about it yearrrs later, her first love.
 
There is also not a single documented incident of anyone over dying from an OD of pot. It has never happened. But every day, people die from OD's of alcohol. Pot is actually a safer drug to abuse than alcohol. You can't OD on it.

From the CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/drown.htm) website:

-Alcohol use is involved in about 25% to 50% of adolescent and adult deaths associated with water recreation (Howland et al. 1995; Howland and Hingson 1988). Alcohol influences balance, coordination, and judgment, and its effects are heightened by sun exposure and heat (Smith and Kraus 1988).

-Alcohol was involved in 39% of reported boating fatalities.


I can't find the exact figure, but I am pretty sure that alcohol was a contributing factor in 99.999% of bar fights. Pot smokers just don't seem that interested in picking fights.
 
See, now I think it's silly that it's illegal to grow hemp in the US but I would find it hard to take seriously any presidential candidate who spent even five seconds thinking about it, let alone putting it into his platform. According to Cecil Adams, US hemp production peaked at 1,300 acres. That's less than half of current US production of brussel sprouts. It had already been overthrown as the plant of choice for textiles. Hemp is not a major industry. It will never be a major industry. It's not like there are vast fields of hemp in the developed world and huge hemp outerwear (or anything else) companies making a mint selling to Europe and Canada and Asia and laughing at those dumb Americans too stubborn to realize the awesome value of hemp products.
Well maybe the straightdope web site is correct and all the other 100s of web sites summarizing a different history are wrong. Regardless, I think it's difficult to argue with this web site's statement:

The role of CANNABIS/HEMP should be determined by market supply and demand and not by undue influence of prohibition laws, federal subsidies and huge tariffs that keep the natural from replacing the synthetic.
source: http://www.jackherer.com/

Ziggurat said:
Sure, hemp being illegal may be stupid. But does it really matter? I'm far from convinced legalizing it would actually have any significant positive impact.
Yes, I think it matters. Even if legalizing hemp ends up having no impact on our economy or what ends up being manufactured in our country, I don't think anything should be made illegal on false pretenses for the benefit of a few corporations. I have to say I find your comment very disturbing.

BTW, Ziggurat, these web sites list more uses for hemp:
The web sites below have a lot of information on other uses of marijuana (a.k.a. hemp and cannabis sativa) such as paper, cloth, fuel, etc.
http://www.cannabis.com/untoldstory/hemp_2.shtml (quicker read)
http://www.cannabis.com/faqs/


Note that FAQ 7 in section 1 also mentions that if hemp were legal in this country, it's likely that some companies would put some R&D into making bioplastics. A new type of plastic that degrades over time would solve our current problem of disposing of tons of plastic that never biodegrades.

Also, check out FAQ4 for good reasons to switch to hemp from trees for making paper.
 
Actually, I think hemp paper is a pretty good idea. While you might have to till, you can get more of it, and it's more durable. Further, it's ultimately cheaper in the long run. While it's not going to replace tree fibers, it could go a long way to preventing deforestation. It's not a panacea, but it could help.

Hemp rope works for historic ships, only, and usually, not even then.
 
trees do have two things in their favor:

1) They take years to grow.
How is this a good thing? I would think that higher productivity was the basic goal with crops.
IIRC There are varieties of hemp that produce far higher yields of usable fiber/acre than any species of trees. This means that fewer acres would need to be planted with the hemp which would free up acreage for other uses, even trees if that's your priority.

Higher productivity is another way of saying more carbon from the atmosphere is being converted to fiber. Any environmentalists looking for carbon sinks? How about ending all requirements that paper be re-cycled and allow us to bury the paper just like we used to?

This is not to deny that it may be possible to cultivate hemp in an ecologically sound manner, but there's certainly nothing inherent about the plant that makes it so.
Perhaps you know more about agriculture than I do. That wouldn't be too tough. Are you a farmer? It's my impression that tilling has gotten a bad rap from the greenies who think that another dust bowl disaster is always right around the corner.
 
BTW, Ziggurat, these web sites list more uses for hemp:
The web sites below have a lot of information on other uses of marijuana (a.k.a. hemp and cannabis sativa) such as paper, cloth, fuel, etc.
http://www.cannabis.com/untoldstory/hemp_2.shtml (quicker read)
http://www.cannabis.com/faqs/

You'll have to pardon me if I don't take their word for it about hemp's advantages compared to other stuff. They say that hemp is suitable for a wider range of fabrics than any other natural fiber. Well, that's actually irrelevant: the question is, what types of fabric is it actually BETTER for than other fibers, natural OR synthetic? That it's suitable for a lot doesn't mean it's still not second-rate, or cost effective. For example, they claim it's better than cotton because it's stronger and doesn't wear out. So are a lot of other fibers, but that's not why people use cotton. They use cotton because it's cheap, soft, sucks away moisture, and because it IS stretchy. Linen is also stronger and less stretchy than cotton, but it's not used as commonly, because strength isn't the only important quality in a fabric.

More generally, it doesn't matter if hemp can be used for all these different applications, what matters is what applications is it the BEST option for? You could burn cotton plants for fuel, for example, but it wouldn't be a good use of it.

Their grasp of science is also kind of lacking. They state that we shouldn't use trees for paper because we're running out. But of course, that's rather simplistic: there are more trees in the US today than there were 100 years ago. They cite the loss of old-growth forest, which is true, but those large trees are cut down primarily for lumber, not for paper. For lumber, one big tree is better than two trees half its size, but the same is not true for paper. It's not paper, but lumber, which threatens old-growth forests, and I don't see hemp replacing lumber. So they don't even understand the problem, why should I think that their proposed solution would really do any good?
 
You'll have to pardon me if I don't take their word for it about hemp's advantages compared to other stuff. They say that hemp is suitable for a wider range of fabrics than any other natural fiber. Well, that's actually irrelevant: the question is, what types of fabric is it actually BETTER for than other fibers, natural OR synthetic? That it's suitable for a lot doesn't mean it's still not second-rate, or cost effective. For example, they claim it's better than cotton because it's stronger and doesn't wear out. So are a lot of other fibers, but that's not why people use cotton. They use cotton because it's cheap, soft, sucks away moisture, and because it IS stretchy. Linen is also stronger and less stretchy than cotton, but it's not used as commonly, because strength isn't the only important quality in a fabric.

This goes back to my original point. If it were the textile industry claiming that they could make better clothes with hemp, or the paper industry claiming it would be a better approach for making paper, it would be one thing. When it is the pro-pot community, it's really hard to care about it, because you realize what they _really_ want to use hemp for has nothing to do with paper or clothes.

As I said, their real goal couldn't be any more obvious if you spotted them the p and the t.
 
Jack Herer said:
The role of CANNABIS/HEMP should be determined by market supply and demand and not by undue influence of prohibition laws, federal subsidies and huge tariffs that keep the natural from replacing the synthetic.
Shera, where are the hemp fields? As you note, hemp products are not banned in the US, just the hemp itself. We're a global economy now -- most of our clothing is already made overseas. Even that most American of apparel, blue jeans, are now made overseas. There's literally no barrier at all to China or Brazil or other clothing manufacturing centers to make clothes out of hemp instead of cotton or nylon or orlon and shipping them here or to other markets. Why, if hemp is so great for fabric, haven't hemp jeans made huge inroads into denim's market share, if not here than at least in Europe? If hemp were half as competitive product as guys like us say it is, why isn't it being used for paper in foreign markets, putting the US at a huge economic competitive disadvantage?
 
Oh, there are good reasons for hemp/pot (I personally use it more for the latter than the former) to be illegal, from the perspective of the policitians.
And don't forget the forfeiture fiascos of the '80s Wonder how many police officers with less than stellar ethics went home with a nice new sportcar, and a few extra pounds of flash.
 
How is this a good thing?

Because while they're growing, a lot of things happen. Birds make nests in them. Rodents eat parts of them. Owls go there and eat the rodents. Insects lay their eggs in the bark. The St. Joe paper company has forests here, and for part of the year, they let people go on the land and cut firewood, so I've been there. Planted forests are nice forests. Not as good as a wild forest, but still better than monoculture.

I would think that higher productivity was the basic goal with crops.
IIRC There are varieties of hemp that produce far higher yields of usable fiber/acre than any species of trees. This means that fewer acres would need to be planted with the hemp which would free up acreage for other uses, even trees if that's your priority.

Higher productivity is another way of saying more carbon from the atmosphere is being converted to fiber.

Only per unit of farmland. And it's also another way of saying that there are more nutrients pulled from the soil, which is much more important than carbon per acre. When you're talking about carbon, it comes from the atmosphere, which is everywhere. Furthermore, the sequestering of carbon has to do with the amount of carbon in the final product, not the means of its production, and the amount of carbon in hemp fibers is not too different from the amount of carbon in trees.

Furthermore, wood has other uses than paper. You can sequester its carbon for hundreds of years in furniture and houses. How long does paper, rope, and clothing last, before it's burned and left to decompose? OK, there are some libraries, but there's a lot more wood in most structures than in the books they contain.

Anyway, the idea that hemp frees up units of land that could otherwise be left wild is potentially one that can be argued. However, how many farmers who want to grow hemp are actually going to let some of their land revert to nature? To a zeroth approximation, I'd have to say "none of them." The amount of arable land doesn't change all that much. It's only gone up by about 5% since the 1950s. I certainly haven't seen it go down.

Perhaps you know more about agriculture than I do. That wouldn't be too tough. Are you a farmer? It's my impression that tilling has gotten a bad rap from the greenies who think that another dust bowl disaster is always right around the corner.

No, I'm not a farmer. I may know more about agriculture than you do, as I have worked on scientific problems concerning the environment, some of which in collaboration with people from an agricultural University, but it doesn't really matter.

I'm not objecting to arguments in favor of hemp or thinking that a rational discussion cannot be had. I'm not saying that there are no environmentally sound arguments in favor of hemp. I'm just saying that presenting hemp as an environmental cure-all, which is how I usually see it being presented by hemp-advocacy organizations, is naive and stupid, of the kind that in my experience I come to expect from people who smoke an awful lot of dope.
 
You'll have to pardon me if I don't take their word for it about hemp's advantages compared to other stuff. They say that hemp is suitable for a wider range of fabrics than any other natural fiber. Well, that's actually irrelevant: the question is, what types of fabric is it actually BETTER for than other fibers, natural OR synthetic? That it's suitable for a lot doesn't mean it's still not second-rate, or cost effective. For example, they claim it's better than cotton because it's stronger and doesn't wear out. So are a lot of other fibers, but that's not why people use cotton. They use cotton because it's cheap, soft, sucks away moisture, and because it IS stretchy. Linen is also stronger and less stretchy than cotton, but it's not used as commonly, because strength isn't the only important quality in a fabric.
Having worn hemp clothings, and having a number of friends who do, I'm familar with it's specific properties.

Compared to cotton: it's stronger and more durable, yes. But it's also as soft or softer than the most commonly available cotton, just as hydrophyllic and holds it's properties better when wet, it's possible to produce as cheaply, or more cheaply, and doesn't require the massive amounts of nitrate fertilizer and pesticides so cultivation is less destructive to the soil and surrounding environment
More generally, it doesn't matter if hemp can be used for all these different applications, what matters is what applications is it the BEST option for? You could burn cotton plants for fuel, for example, but it wouldn't be a good use of it.
It is, in fact, best for quit a number of different applications; fabric and paper being two of them.

It's also an ideal source for oil seed for fuel and plastics applications, because of its high yield and ability to grow well in marginal land that other oil seed crops cannot.
 
Years ago California allowed some trial cultivation of hemp. The feds came in and tore up the crop before it could be harvested.

I was disgusted by this abuse of states rights by the federal government.

Almost certainly the US would be better off if hemp/marijuana were legalized. But probably the benefit would be much less than some have suggested here. Like Manny has pointed out if hemp was all that useful, the US would be at a significant disadvantage to those countries that aren't encumbered with our idiotic policies on this issue. There doesn't seem to be much evidence that this is the case, so if by some miracle common sense takes over in the US and we allow the farming of hemp I wouldn't look to see any great changes as a result.

It would be nice to have a few less grandmothers in jail because they smoked dope to relieve some of the nausea from their cancer treatments though.
 
Almost certainly the US would be better off if hemp/marijuana were legalized. But probably the benefit would be much less than some have suggested here. Like Manny has pointed out if hemp was all that useful, the US would be at a significant disadvantage to those countries that aren't encumbered with our idiotic policies on this issue.
That is the problem; though. There really aren't any who don't have idiotic laws similar to the US (often due to US pressure); who are capable of the large-scale commercial cultivation necessary to compete effectively in the US and world markets.

It also requires a pretty serious buy-in by a large-scale clothing producer, most of whom operate closely with their suppliers and aren't likely to switch. Combine that with the fact that the US's track record on legislation on the issue is inconsistent at best, they could find themselves losing that particular gamble if Congress decides to put a lid on hemp imports. And large producers aren't going to buy in at current prices, which are higher than cotton due to economies of scale. And, of course, no one is going to start up the kind of production levels needed to increase the scale, without some pretty iron-clad guarantees from buyers.

And things really aren't that different in the EU, which is just as schizophrenic on this issue as the US (thanks to decades of US pressure).

There is already a sizeable market in the Middle and Far East, but they're still quite small compared to the US and European market.
 
Shera, where are the hemp fields? As you note, hemp products are not banned in the US, just the hemp itself. We're a global economy now -- most of our clothing is already made overseas. Even that most American of apparel, blue jeans, are now made overseas. There's literally no barrier at all to China or Brazil or other clothing manufacturing centers to make clothes out of hemp instead of cotton or nylon or orlon and shipping them here or to other markets. Why, if hemp is so great for fabric, haven't hemp jeans made huge inroads into denim's market share, if not here than at least in Europe? If hemp were half as competitive product as guys like us say it is, why isn't it being used for paper in foreign markets, putting the US at a huge economic competitive disadvantage?

Luchog and Davefoc answered you first but I'll just add on that I think this web site is worth reading:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/08/25/BU111394.DTL&type=business

The US govt has made it very expensive for people to import hemp products even though its suppose to be legal. Businesses can't stay in business long if they end up using their resources in the courts instead of in trade.

Here's another web site that talks about a two-year legal fight between California businesses and the federal govt:
http://nutiva.com/about/media/2004_02_06a.php

Also, I would not expect most international businesses to put a lot of resources into an area so ripe for litigation and confiscation. On the books hemp products may be legal in the US, but it appears that IRL there are problems.

Hemp is now legally grown in Canada and the UK so perhaps it will eventually become legal in the US as well. (1) Some states in the US have made it legal (2), but in reality as long as its illegal on the federal level it doesn't matter.

Even if the federal law should change and it becomes legal to grow hemp, I think it would take years for businesses to tool up and take advantage of the new laws.

Prohibition wiped out many American breweries, and many think it took about 50, 60 years for the industry to recover after it became legal again.

But why speculate? Why not revoke laws that make no sense and have a lot of evidence that they were passed only to give some powerful businessmen unfair advantages, and let the market place decide?

---

(1) Hemp is legal to grow in Canada:
http://perc.ca/PEN/1998-11/russell.html
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/econ9631

And in the UK:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=626551


(2) Per Davefoc's post Hemp it was legal to grow on a trial basis per California laws.

Here's an article about the House in Mass. passing a law to allow farmers to grow hemp.
http://www.eagletribune.com/news/stories/20050324/NH_001.htm

Note: Its illegal to grow hemp per Federal laws unless one gets a special permit from the DEA. But is it wise to risk building a business on special permits for a crop that is so politically charged?

Also see next post.


Edited note 2 for accuracy and additional information.
 
Last edited:
USA Farmers and State Legislatures Support Industrial Hemp

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-11-22-hemp-crop_x.htm

Led by Monson, North Dakota's Legislature has passed laws to make hemp farming legal — if the U.S. government ever allows it. The laws would require hemp growers to undergo criminal background checks and agree to subject their plants to tests for THC.

Hawaii, Kentucky, Maine, Montana and West Virginia also have passed hemp-farming bills. U.S. Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas, introduced such a bill in Congress in June, but it hasn't advanced in the face of opposition by the Drug Enforcement Administration and the White House's anti-drug office.
 
The point has been made, that if available, there could be a market for industrial hemp. The significant problem, though, is Federal interference, supposedly to keep us from the minority who take a toke now and again. I keep thinking of "B-1" Bob Dornan, who kept insisting that in reality, Prohibition worked, even as the evidence made it plain that it didn't. He was probably one of the biggest obstacles to sensible legislation regarding hemp, and its industrial use.

Ever wonder why people in other parts of the world think we're nuts, when this sort of thing is going on?

As to the potheads, trust me. List one cause that didn't draw its share of kooks.
 
The point has been made, that if available, there could be a market for industrial hemp.

I really am not sure about there being any market for hemp on a wide scale even if all obstacles were removed. There is a lot of infrastructure invested in the materials currently being used. To switch would require hemp being more efficient (in most cases efficient=less expensive) than existing materials and I am not sure if that would be the case any time soon.

Presently though there is a niche market for hemp and folks seem very willing to pay premium prices for it. I, personally, know several people, not pot smokers, who view hemp as a superior material for certain goods and seek it out. I suspect most/all of us know at least 1 or 2 people who fit this description. And those products are available to them.

The significant problem, though, is Federal interference, supposedly to keep us from the minority who take a toke now and again. I keep thinking of "B-1" Bob Dornan, who kept insisting that in reality, Prohibition worked, even as the evidence made it plain that it didn't. He was probably one of the biggest obstacles to sensible legislation regarding hemp, and its industrial use.

I agree the that drug enforcement limits the hemp business unnecessarily. I am simply uncertain that hemp would become a mainstream material even if all those restrictions were removed. As an example corn is used for a few things that hemp would be a more efficient source. Would farmers overnight stop growing corn and opt for hemp if there were no regulatory risks? I doubt it. corn, in the US is subsidized, distribution channels are well established etc. Simply removing the regulations, I don't think, would make hemp a cost effective choice for mainstream products very quickly, if at all.

Ever wonder why people in other parts of the world think we're nuts, when this sort of thing is going on?

No. I am tempted to think this way at times, but then I realize every nation on earth has it's absurd policies and customs. Anyone who thinks the US is nuts and their own culture isn't is a person I don't really view as objective.

As to the potheads, trust me. List one cause that didn't draw its share of kooks.

The stereotypical Cheech and Chong potheads, to the extent they actually exist, might be 'kooks', but everyone I know who smokes pot seems fairly normal to me.
 
The stereotypical Cheech and Chong potheads, to the extent they actually exist, might be 'kooks', but everyone I know who smokes pot seems fairly normal to me.

I'm not talking about the folks who take a hit once in a while. I'm talking about the genuine whackos. The folks who make Cheech and Chong look like William F. Buckley.
 
I'm not talking about the folks who take a hit once in a while. I'm talking about the genuine whackos. The folks who make Cheech and Chong look like William F. Buckley.

Point noted, it is just that I don't know anyone who makes Cheech and Chong look like William F. Buckley. I am willing to take your word for it that such people do exist, I just never met one. In my experience there are lots of people (although not necessarily you) who view recreational pot users as being stereotypical stoners types, but have no problem throwing down a few beers or glasses of wine. They annoy the crap out of me and that was what motivated my comment, although in no way am I accusing you of any such thing.
 

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