Why is there a double standard for Judaism?

[bigjelmapro]

Ignorance? People know little of Islam, so it's easy to make claims that amount to that all Muslims are fundamentalists. Appealing to base instincts? Those Muslim immigrants come here to steal our jobs, you realize that, don't you?

People know little about Judaism either. So that argument is irrelevant.

Such statements easily garner you 10% of the votes - see the SVP or Wilders.

Right-wing support is how high in holland again?

The numbers of Jews and Muslims in Holland are about the same as in Switzerland percentage-wise - but there was a huge outcry from the Jewish community that this was an infringement on religion. There were hardly reactions from the Muslim community. And the mainstream christian-democratic party kept also quite silent, not quite knowing where to put their priorities.

A 'huge outcry' from mainly the orthodox community doesn't belong in the same sentence when applied to Judaism, sorry. Overall, the issue of stunning animals before slaughter is gaining traction, in both Judaism and Islam. So presenting one side as not budging, while the other, Islam, is somehow remaining silent, is a farce.

Nice try though.

 

[ddt]

People know little about Judaism either. So that argument is irrelevant.

On its own, yes, you're right. But when you claim the same kind of things about all Jews as are claimed by some about all Muslims, you're in Hitler territory and people recognize that.

Right-wing support is how high in holland again?

Wilders' party polled 15 to 16% at the last elections.

A 'huge outcry' from mainly the orthodox community doesn't belong in the same sentence when applied to Judaism, sorry. Overall, the issue of stunning animals before slaughter is gaining traction, in both Judaism and Islam. So presenting one side as not budging, while the other, Islam, is somehow remaining silent, is a farce.

Nice try though.

The news didn't specify what kind of Jewish organizations protested. But it's not only orthodox Jews - this Dutch newspaper article quotes a spokesman from the "Union for Progressive Judaism" who is against the proposed law. There were reactions, though, from all over the world (link) including, IIRC, from American Jewish organizations, and those reactions were quite strong in their wording like "attack on freedom of religion". Take the juxtaposition with Muslims as you want - that Jewish organizations are better organized, better know how to play the political game (or how to play the victim card), or maybe they have more interest in keeping the law as it is. This link claims that 80% of halal slaughter is already carried out with stunning, but gives no numbers on kosher slaughter.

 

[bigjelmapro]

On its own, yes, you're right. But when you claim the same kind of things about all Jews as are claimed by some about all Muslims, you're in Hitler territory and people recognize that.

Not really. That's plain ignorance. Making generalizations about religious beliefs/customs/etc. doesn't automatically entitle one to being in the same ranks as Hitler. This would be a great example of Godwin's law, since pretty much all the cases that this law has been employed on this website is incorrect.

The news didn't specify what kind of Jewish organizations protested. But it's not only orthodox Jews - this Dutch newspaper article quotes a spokesman from the "Union for Progressive Judaism" who is against the proposed law. There were reactions, though, from all over the world (link) including, IIRC, from American Jewish organizations, and those reactions were quite strong in their wording like "attack on freedom of religion". Take the juxtaposition with Muslims as you want - that Jewish organizations are better organized, better know how to play the political game (or how to play the victim card), or maybe they have more interest in keeping the law as it is. This link claims that 80% of halal slaughter is already carried out with stunning, but gives no numbers on kosher slaughter.

I would dare say that the brunt of protestors, in the Netherlands that is (as my argument isn't restricted to the Netherlands, when yours obviously is), are from the orthodox background.

A central issue here that's being missed, is the slippery slope the Dutch government, and goverments worldwide, would endure when stepping in on religious freedoms and where to draw the line. Which freedoms would be restricted and who would decide this along with what other freedoms might face restrictions.

To me, ritual slaughter and issues of animal cruelty is a no-brainer. As is the blatant generalization by yourself that Jewish organizations "are better organized, better know how to play the political game (or how to play the victim card), or maybe they have more interest in keeping the law as it is."

This is a case and point of those generalizations that you were so worried about.

As for 80% halal slaughterhouses claim. Its a claim and I don't see any actual source for it, albeit I don't see how this claim would be false.

Islamic slaughter permits stunning, in Judaism, there's the ongoing discussion that stunning bruises the animal, which would render the meat unkosher. Depending on the form of stunning, both can be unkosher/haram depending if the animal is unconscious or actually dead prior to slaughter. Stunning of chickens prior to slaughter, to my knowledge, is haram/unkosher in both Islam and Judaism.

Lest we forget, the act of stunning here was and continues to be primarily for the safety of those working at the slaughterhouse, not for the humane method of slaughter.

Interesting article: Stunning Animals Before Slaughtering Them

 

[Virus]

Such statements easily garner you 10% of the votes - see the SVP or Wilders.

But you lose the leftist and Muslim vote.

In France the Jewish vote is 500,000. The Muslim vote is five million. So a noted French intellectual sent a letter to the Socialist Party advising them to ditch the Jewish vote in favour of the Muslim vote.

 

[DC]

But you lose the leftist and Muslim vote.

In France the Jewish vote is 500,000. The Muslim vote is five million. So a noted French intellectual sent a letter to the Socialist Party advising them to ditch the Jewish vote in favour of the Muslim vote.

SVP has never had leftist voters, so they lose nothing. dont know about wilders.
if our leftist parties continue with their join the EU ********, right wingers might actually win votes from the left despite their racism

 

[MinnesotaBrant]

Everybody in my neighborhood is Jewish. I am idle because of some holliday they call passover. They do not even take calls. Whats up with that? They seem a little more into it than the Catholics but seeing as all my customers are Jewish I don't mind.

 

[DC]

Everybody in my neighborhood is Jewish. I am idle because of some holliday they call passover. They do not even take calls. Whats up with that? They seem a little more into it than the Catholics but seeing as all my customers are Jewish I don't mind.

 

[MinnesotaBrant]

empty post. Ewww. I guess I will go meet my friends. It is either really hard or really easy to argue with an empty poster

 

[marksman]

This is probably stereotyping, but it seems that Judaism is more about keeping the outsiders outside

Yep. Jews did proselytize around 2000 years ago. Then Rome killed off about a third of the Jewish population in the Judean Revolts, and those that survived did so, in part, by scattering about (known as the Diaspora) and agreeing not to proselytize in the places where they moved. Since then, Judaism doesn't proselytize, and has some rules in place to make sure that converts are doing it for the "right reason" (i.e., a belief in Judaism, and not for some perceived material advantage or to marry a Jew).

 

[Mycroft]

that Jewish organizations are better organized, better know how to play the political game (or how to play the victim card), or maybe they have more interest in keeping the law as it is.

I think all groups have the right to advocate for their own self-interests, and that there is something seriously wrong with portraying that as "playing the victim card."

 

[epepke]

Might also have to do with the fact that I've never seen a proselytizing Jew, whereas at my college back in the late 90's there was pretty much always a Muslim outreach and conversion activity going on. There seems to be an active Islamic evangelist movement, whereas Judaism seems to try to make it hard for a non-Jew to convert. This is probably stereotyping, but it seems that Judaism is more about keeping the outsiders outside, and Islam about converting the outsiders. That could easily be a source of the different reactions to different communities.

It's not really a stereotype. Traditionally in Judaism, someone who wants to convert to Judaism has to be refused a certain number of times (opinions differ as to whether it is two or three). That's to make sure that they really, really want to do it. In Judaism, Jews have special obligations that other people don't, and there are a lot of them. While Islam is usually presented as a universal religion, Judaism never has been. It's only for those who have the tough luck to be born that way or are really interested in converting.

 

[Matt Giwer]

More than 10 million people, most of them jews, were systematically murdered.

That's a lot to feel guilty for. For both the countries that did it and for those who ask themselves if they did enough to stop it.

As is discussed in Haaretz and the Jerusalem Post all the time, Israel is a master in skilful manipulation of it.

The last I heard only the perp is guilty. There is no thing as group guilt. The law does not recognize it. International law prohibits it. The US Constitution specifically prohibits it.

I have no further questions. Do you?

 

[Matt Giwer]

i feel not guilty about that. why should i.

No rational person does but there is a pagan moral system involved and manipulated.

 

[DC]

No rational person does but there is a pagan moral system involved and manipulated.

BS

 

[beachnut]

we have roughly 0.2% of the population that is Jewish.

we have several Kosher butchers and shops offering kosher stuff.
...
we have almost 6% moslems.

... we have 1 Halal butcher in our country.
...

Groups that say similar stuff about jews are under observation by the police, we keep an eye on them. Not so when you concentrate on Moslems.

why?

Swiss are .2% bigots against Jews, 6 percent against Muslims (30 times greater bigotry, does that match up with the perceived problem)?
Kosher pickles are better than Halal pickles?
Kosher and halal foods are similar?

1 Halal butcher in our country

Muslims have decided to be more "Swiss-like", enjoy the freedom to have a Kronenbourg 1664 or a Hoegaarden with their hamburger.

As Switzerland bans building of Minerates in Switzerland after 57% of them voted for it, isn't it time to ban Swiss products from Muslim countries too.

Do minarets ruin the tourist industry, or what?

When can I build a Presbyterian church in Mecca, can't even fly over Mecca? No big deal. Would Disney have a Frontier-land ride in Fantasy-land? These are big questions, where is the USSR when you need a big distraction.

How many Swiss like Kosher foods? A good Deli goes a long way!

Saudi Arabia allows Christians to enter the country as foreign workers for temporary work, but does not allow them to practice their faith openly. Maybe a religion that forbids other religions from practing in public, needs to be restricted, banned, until they meet the standards of being tollerant.
I think the Swiss should be like the Saudis, or what.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

we have roughly 0.2% of the population that is Jewish.

we have several Kosher butchers and shops offering kosher stuff.
in public hospitals you get offered Kosher food if you wish so.
There is no restriction of what parts of their synagogues they are allowed to build. We have several synagogues.
Denial of the Holocaust is against the laws.

we have almost 6% moslems.

many people hate the idea that we have 1 Halal butcher in our country.
in public hospitals you are not able to get a halal meal.
WE restricted what parts of their mosques they can build.
Politicans (especially SVP) are making the most unbelievable claims about Islam and moslems. it seems acceptable to openly express your Islamaphobia and blatant lies about them.

Groups that say similar stuff about jews are under observation by the police, we keep an eye on them. Not so when you concentrate on Moslems.

why?

Your numbers might be a little off, but still in the ballpark.

Your question would be perfectly suited to address to an elected official. Write a single-page letter, concerned citizen, blabla, I want to teach my kids, blabla, please help.

Start with the mayor and take it from there. I would be surprised if you will receive more than a form letter response.



My answer is along the others in this thread: Guilt complex, Muslims are easier identified (skin, beard, headscarf, clothing, etc.) as different from the rest of the group and a majority in Europe seems to be on Israel's side when it comes to politics and especially Palestine.
Would it be too cynical to assume a majority could tend to be on Israel's side because they - or their mentor - could do more for them?

Throw in a bombardment of usually opinion-colored media coverage add a shovel of ignorance plus a shovel of the basic sentiment I do not like people who are different et voilà:

Muslims are the new blacks.

 

[Soapy Sam]

I think they're both daft and I see no good reason to pander to daftness on anyone's part.

 

[DC]

Swiss are .2% bigots against Jews, 6 percent against Muslims (30 times greater bigotry, does that match up with the perceived problem)?
Kosher pickles are better than Halal pickles?
Kosher and halal foods are similar?


Muslims have decided to be more "Swiss-like", enjoy the freedom to have a Kronenbourg 1664 or a Hoegaarden with their hamburger.

Do minarets ruin the tourist industry, or what?

When can I build a Presbyterian church in Mecca, can't even fly over Mecca? No big deal. Would Disney have a Frontier-land ride in Fantasy-land? These are big questions, where is the USSR when you need a big distraction.

How many Swiss like Kosher foods? A good Deli goes a long way!

Saudi Arabia allows Christians to enter the country as foreign workers for temporary work, but does not allow them to practice their faith openly. Maybe a religion that forbids other religions from practing in public, needs to be restricted, banned, until they meet the standards of being tollerant.
I think the Swiss should be like the Saudis, or what.

we are more like 60% bigoted.
we are even bigoted against eachother, States vs States. nuts.
lucky i am different.

oh Harold's? sound good, i love hamburgers... oh wait thats in Verbie, they speak frensh there, i hate them.



somehow i believed, leading as example, or so, would be the way to go. not looking how others do worse, but looking to others doing better

 

[DC]

Your numbers might be a little off, but still in the ballpark.

Your question would be perfectly suited to address to an elected official. Write a single-page letter, concerned citizen, blabla, I want to teach my kids, blabla, please help.

Start with the mayor and take it from there. I would be surprised if you will receive more than a form letter response.



My answer is along the others in this thread: Guilt complex, Muslims are easier identified (skin, beard, headscarf, clothing, etc.) as different from the rest of the group and a majority in Europe seems to be on Israel's side when it comes to politics and especially Palestine.
Would it be too cynical to assume a majority could tend to be on Israel's side because they - or their mentor - could do more for them?

Throw in a bombardment of usually opinion-colored media coverage add a shovel of ignorance plus a shovel of the basic sentiment I do not like people who are different et voilà:

Muslims are the new blacks.

the CIA laks behind a decade on religions they used the 2000 cencus.

honestly i dont know about Israel/Palestina polls. will google it.

but it seems we just hate about everyone

http://www.humanrights.ch/home/en/S...rs/Groups/cultural/idcatart_2062-content.html

ETA: ok we also hate Israel. well some 50% believe Israel is governed by Fanatics, 13% say Israel has no right to exist....

http://www.humanrights.ch/home/de/Schweiz/Inneres/Gruppen/Religioese/idcatart_6552-content.html
(only in german, sorry, i wonder why )

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Have you considered contacting an elected official with your concern?