Why is prostitution illegal?

Ivor the Engineer said:
How do you know this?
Click to expand...

I've read several articles about this law now, it seems to me that this law is successful depending on who you talk to.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...adical-reform-of-the-law-on-prostitution.html

For example, if you are a woman NOT working on the streets, or a politician, or an officer of the law, it's a wonderful law. The number show a decline in street walkers, but it doesn't help the "underground" street walkers (the ones who hide).

But for those women who ARE on the street, it simply doesn't work:

For the women who ply their wares, however, the law change has left them vulnerable, they say. Take Anja. At 44, she is a mother of two and worked Stockholm's streets for six years before the switch in the law. ''We could work in pairs or groups before 1999,'' she grumbles. ''Now I have to hide alone. OK, so I am not going to be prosecuted but the punter will, so who is going to openly stop?''

Now she hangs around an isolated spot waiting for trade. ''A punter will pull up and mumble a meeting place, somewhere quiet where no one will see me getting into his car. Before, I would have my mates, it would be more open, we could assess the men. Now, it's a fleeting chat, just to arrange another pick-up point, there's no chance to check him out.''

She has good reason to be wary. A fading bruise beneath her right eye and a scar above her eyebrow are still visible – the consequences of a violent customer. "You don't want to know," is all she will say.
Click to expand...

It also states that human trafficking has increased, but to be fair, it's increased everywhere, not just in Sweden.

Personally, I like this woman's protest:

http://www.walnet.org/csis/news/world_2003/ap-030415.html

My opinion is that this law just doesn't go far enough. It really doesn't help the people who are really desparate don't get any help, making LESS money than before. And yes, to be fair, you have to take these people into account: the people who enjoy and choose this line of work are not benefitting at all. Most of them are advertising on the web and are also making less money.

So it's looks like to me that this is a band-aid. The people who are singing praises and claiming success to this idea are the upper polictians out to impress people and the people who are against prostitution for "moral" reasons.

...smoke and mirrors....
 
So get rid of the punters. Change how men in our societies perceive women. Feminists claim they want equality, but they really don't seem to have the balls to do what's required to achieve it.

Or are most women happy that many men consider them mainly as providers of sex for payment/reward?

That's the attitude legalising prostitution reinforces.
Click to expand...

Perhaps that's the way YOU see it. I, personally, don't. Why? Because I'm different from you.

There have been several people on this thread who have claimed that I tend to think that since I know a few people who enjoy being a prostitute, that all people in the business do. That is not how I think.

I know that there are a people who enjoy it, people who don't, people who are trafficked into doing it, etc, etc, etc. There's a whole range.

So, I am of the opinion that if there are people who enjoy it, why punish them? Because YOU believe that they are being exploited? Because YOUR personal philosphy doesn't agree with theirs?

Isn't that what you are claiming I'm doing?

In fact, Ivan, you've decided that prostitution = "women (are) happy that many men consider them mainly as providers of sex for payment/reward". You have said that "men had and have more power than women".

It sounds like to me, and if I'm wrong, I'm sorry, that you are imposing and projecting your own beliefs and thoughts into others.

Now, I will agree with you that some people might think what you are afraid that they might be thinking, however, some will not. And you know what? The people who are going to think the way you fear they might are going to think that way no matter what. Prosititution has be illegal for a long time. Are you telling me that the attitude you are so afraid of doesn't exist now?????

For example, you dislike prostitution but you believe that "men are more powerful than women". However, I'm in favor of prostitution and I don't believe that at all. In fact, I am in favor of prostitution, I am a man and I firmly know that "women (are) happy that many men consider them mainly as providers of sex for payment/reward" is complete and utter bullpuckies. Further, I believe that "men had and have more power than women" is a bigger pile of bullpuckies.

It seems to me that you've made the decision that everyone thinks that way, and it is just not true. It's another example of a slippery slope. Exactly like saying "if there was no god, then all the people in the world would do what they want without remorse."
 
Last edited:
Given the choice, should you help 5 people at the cost of 1 or 1 at the cost of 5? It appears you believe the latter.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
Given the choice, should you help 5 people at the cost of 1 or 1 at the cost of 5? It appears you believe the latter.
Click to expand...

There you go, making assumptions again.

Nope I believe in helping EVERYONE. I just don't believe that the answer is a simple one, as you seem to believe.

I'll say this again: Start with legalizing prostitution for everyone. Apply regulations, perhaps using the regulation simular to the ones for porno as a model. Scan the legal brothels and see what is working and go out into the streets, and actually ask the street walkers and johns (In your neck of the woods, they're called punters, I think...) what they need for help. After all, those are the people one is trying to help.

This way, the efforts from the police aren't wasted to the 2 out of 10 people (using your ratio) that are not suffering, abusing, etc, but that effort can be used more efficiently to find the traffickers, the people killing prostitutes, help the prostitutes that do want to get out of the lifestyle, help the prostitutes that want to stay in but don't have the means to even to do that, etc, etc.

Your way is a waste of those efforts. And, in fact, PUNISHES the really destitute people in that position: they are getting far less money and help than before.
 
Last edited:
Here's an interesting site: (sorry if it's been linked before)

http://prostitution.procon.org

On one of their pages they have the results of a 1995 survey on whether prostitution should be legal or not. I think the most interesting section is this one:

Education(sample: 1,411)
Less than high school graduate 9(for) 91(against)
High school graduate 15(for) 85(against)
Some college 17(for) 83(against)
College graduate or higher 26(for) 74(against)

So the largest number of people to think prostitution should be legalised are members of the social group least likely to become prostitutes, and members of the social group most likely to become prostitutes are the strongest group against legalisation.

The same trend is apparent in income too. More rich people think prostitution should be legalised than poor people.

In general it seems as your risk of becoming a prostitute increases, the stronger you are against it.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
Here's an interesting site: (sorry if it's been linked before)

http://prostitution.procon.org

On one of their pages they have the results of a 1995 survey on whether prostitution should be legal or not. I think the most interesting section is this one:

Education(sample: 1,411)
Less than high school graduate 9(for) 91(against)
High school graduate 15(for) 85(against)
Some college 17(for) 83(against)
College graduate or higher 26(for) 74(against)

So the largest number of people to think prostitution should be legalised are members of the social group least likely to become prostitutes, and members of the social group most likely to become prostitutes are the strongest group against legalisation.

The same trend is apparent in income too. More rich people think prostitution should be legalised than poor people.

In general it seems as your risk of becoming a prostitute increases, the stronger you are against it.
Click to expand...

Speculation. It could have to do with the correlation between education and political ideology, religiousity, etc.

And, again, it is irrelevant to the topic at hand unless you are trying to poison the well and say that we can't understand because we are elitists or something like that.
 
quixotecoyote said:
That's an odd article for you to link. What point were you making with it?
Click to expand...

That's a good point.

How would the "Swedish law" help this person????

Make it impossible for her to make enough money so she goes further underground?
 
I wonder if illegality makes women have to do more harmful and degrading/dangerous things for the money. I think it's better if it's legal-- victims could utilize laws against thievery and violence like a hot dog vendor could. She could decided what she would and wouldn't do for how much... Illegality means that you have to trust the payers, and you have no recourse when they do something illegal.

I suppose in Sweden you can turn them in... you could also do that if it was legal, and seek damages.

I can see why people would not want the practice out in the open on their street corners... but it doesn't look like illegality solves that problem... legal red light districts and brothels seem to curb it. Condom usage and proper disposal is a must to protect everyone involved-- making it illegal seems to make this potential solution fall by the wayside. The worst damages from prostitution involve the spread of AIDs, right? I fail to see how illegality does anything except to make people less likely to use condoms and more in denial about what they are doing.

That's a major problem in Africa right now. Women often turn to prostitution to support children who are often born of rape in a country where condoms are seen as ineffective or a sign of sin (preplanned sex)-- and AIDs is too shameful to talk about. The primal urges of men are still there -- the drive for a woman to do anything to support her children is still there... the simplest solution seems to be causing AIDS to spread unchecked which just encourages the phenomena... kids without parents need to eat... it's better to have someone pay for sex then just to steal it... and so on.

This moral high brow approach seems about as effective as the "just say no" approach to drugs and "abstinence only" education-- doomed to failure-- uninformative-- and based religious based morality that doesn't take facts and knowledge about how humans have evolved into mind.

Humans did evolve to be "barterers"-- to offer what we have in return for what we want. Young kids do it with their Halloween candy and toys. Unless you give people other things to barter with, they will use whatever they have... especially when it comes to fulfilling primal urges-- protection of the young, social and sexual contact, survival, eating. These are not drives that you can regulate with "just say no" platitudes and moral legislation.

You need to define goals, study what actually does work, and provide valid options for meeting drives that people really don't "choose". I'm not sure that people choose what they are and aren't sexually attracted to-- but I know the drive is very strong for some people... and I would hope that it's also safe. I don't know why pedophiles are attracted to kids... I'm not sure they do either... but I'd rather a creepy safe outlet even if it's a doll that looks like a real kid or a consenting adult that is willing to role play for cash-- then the harm of a real kid. Shaming doesn't solve the problem at all it seems. If someone has a weird fetish, or perversion-- it would be better for all concerned if he found a consenting partner -- even if he had to pay her/him.
 
Last edited:
Ivor the Engineer said:
And still no answer. Not that I expect to get a coherent answer from any of you.

Probably best just to ignore the tough questions so you can continue to believe you have all the answers.
Click to expand...

Well, if that's "asking the tough questions" I can do that too.

Was Prohibition a good idea, Ivor? Did it work? Don't try to ignore the tough questions!

(Any attempt to point out that this is an off-topic distraction will be misrepresented as you ignoring the tough questions).
 
So, have there been any coherent answers to the OP question as to why prostitution is illegal. It's a primitive moral law, isn't it? We have no evidence that it's good for anything, right?-- No evidence, that it cuts down on the exploitation of women.

Just checking in. If there are no good arguments for it being illegal, then I think it's time to make it legal and put our legislative money to better uses. It costs money to enforce laws and we ought to use that money to enforce laws that have a measurable beneficial affect... otherwise we are letting form trump function-- we are allowing the laws to get in the way of the overall goals that the laws should theoretically guide us towards.

Is there any positive goal achieved by having prostitution be illegal? We know there is a cost involved in enforcing laws. So what makes these costs worth it, if anything?
 
articulett said:
So, have there been any coherent answers to the OP question as to why prostitution is illegal. It's a primitive moral law, isn't it? We have no evidence that it's good for anything, right?-- No evidence, that it cuts down on the exploitation of women.

Just checking in. If there are no good arguments for it being illegal, then I think it's time to make it legal and put our legislative money to better uses. It costs money to enforce laws and we ought to use that money to enforce laws that have a measurable beneficial affect... otherwise we are letting form trump function-- we are allowing the laws to get in the way of the overall goals that the laws should theoretically guide us towards.

Is there any positive goal achieved by having prostitution be illegal? We know there is a cost involved in enforcing laws. So what makes these costs worth it, if anything?
Click to expand...

How do you ensure that the women aren't exploited?
 
How do you ensure it? How does this relate to the OP? Does making it illegal stop exploitation?

The OP was about why it's illegal, remember? So do you have evidence that making it illegal ensures that women aren't exploited? If so--present it please.

I already presented a peer reviewed article on exploitation in regards to legalized prostitution with suggestions about how to prevent such exploitation... --and what have you offered besides your ever ready insincere troll question?
 
Last edited:
How do you ensure that the women aren't exploited?
Click to expand...

What is exploitation?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/exploitation

ex·ploi·ta·tion (ksploi-tshn)
n.
1. The act of employing to the greatest possible advantage: exploitation of copper deposits.
2. Utilization of another person or group for selfish purposes: exploitation of unwary consumers.
3. An advertising or a publicity program.
Click to expand...

To be clear we are talking about definition 2 right?

The answer is then: the women are just going to have to be responsible for that themselves just like everyone else is who is essentially self-employed. Otherwise you're talking about sex trafficking and pimps which are ancillary activities of sex work and not a single person here has advocated in favour of these things to my knowledge.

How do we ensure these things don't occur? The answer is clearly not "make selling sex illegal," otherwise it would have ensured these things don't occur.
 
Mark6 said:
That is true. What the source omits is that people doing "trades" in Cuba -- and in USSR, for that matter, -- lived on the edge of starvation. Soviet Union had few full-time prostitutes, because not having a job was illegal -- she'd be arrested and sent to gulag. Not for prostitution per se (it was a crime, but not a prison offence), but for being a "parasite" -- official term for anyone not working. But living on one's salary meant poverty -- common Soviet curse was "May you live on your salary alone!" So people did what they could to improve their lot. Including selling their bodies -- usually to foreigners, since prostituting one's self to equally poor Russians made little sense. And in Cuba, Russians were "visiting rich foreigners."
Click to expand...

I was never an advocate of the Soviet (or the Cuban, for that matter) system, so what is the point of your anecdotes? What I have been able to find on the internet seems to indicate that prostitution exploded after the market economy was introduced in the former USSR and its allied countries. It also seems to confirm that poverty is what forces most prostitutes to take up the profession.

Russia
Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union
So the overall picture builds up: deep-rooted poverty and social
problems leading to an international trade in young women.
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=55866]Prostitution in former Soviet republics
Many links!
Click to expand...
I will argue that the sexualization of Russian culture has both sensationalized and normalized prostitution, causing many women to seek it as an acceptable form of work in the face of economic hardship. I will contrast this post-Soviet phenomenon with the Soviet period, when prostitution and the sexual representation of women in the media were almost nonexistent. (my italization, dann)
http://www.sras.org/normalization_of_prostitution_in_post-soviet_russia
Click to expand...
http://scholar.google.dk/scholar?hl=da&lr=&q=prostitution+"Soviet+Union"&btnG=Søg
In the tumultuous years since 1991, nostalgia for the Soviet Union has become widespread in Russia as the stability, security, and global prestige of the Soviet era vanished in favor of impoverishment, criminality, prostitution, growing social inequalities, and the loss of superpower status.
http://books.google.com/books?hl=da...HN90&sig=Q3aHOWeiITbLPpI65bjrZBWZulk#PPA10,M1
Click to expand...
 
The answer is then: the women are just going to have to be responsible for that themselves just like everyone else is who is essentially self-employed. Otherwise you're talking about sex trafficking and pimps which are ancillary activities of sex work and not a single person here has advocated in favour of these things to my knowledge.

How do we ensure these things don't occur? The answer is clearly not "make selling sex illegal," otherwise it would have ensured these things don't occur.
Click to expand...

The answer is also not just "make buying sex illegal" as well. The answer is just make it legal both ways, so that the people who aren't exploited or being exploited are not themselves exploited by the people who so worried about people being exploited. It's hypocritical to say "we must protect the exploited" and not taking into account the people who are NOT exploited, then punish everyone. In other words, the people who weren't exploited get exploited, and the already exploited people get it even worse

So first, make it legal to buy and sell. Then the next step is to put in some regulations, e.g. proof of age, health care, etc. So that street-walkers, pimps and brothels have to stick to the regulations. This will do two things: it will allow people to make a living at this profession, who are willing to prove that they are not exploiting anyone, and give them an out when they want to leave. That's how the porno industry does it.

Allow sex workers to group and form help clinics/support groups. As an example of that, the porno industry is a legal sex industry, and they've created a group to help stop child porn on the web (http://www.asacp.org/page.php) and a website so that adult webmasters can get labeled for adult material to protect children from on-line porn ( http://www.rtalabel.org/index.php).

There are other programs that can be done to protect the street-walker, or any other prostitute but prostitution HAS to be legal all the way through in order to correctly and successfully create those programs. You can't have these things run by people in the business when the business itself is illegal, with the fear of the police. Also, while it's illegal, any program that might open would be extremely one-sided.

I may be overly optimistic about this point of view, but I am in the adult business and I know how it works. Then again, I think the idea of saying "wipe out poverty and there will be no prostitution" is even more of a dream. No matter what Marx said, you cannot wipe out poverty. You have to deal with it like you deal with everything else.

As to why it's illegal? I think it's all morality and politics. People will approve of violence but not of sex. I find it ironic that people can sell their bodily fluids or their bodies to produce a child with the stipulation is that you can't enjoy yourself while doing it. To do anything with your body to give pleasure to someone is a big no-no.

Which brings me to this whole bullpuckie of prostitution "sends the wrong message". It's the wrong message to give to someone that it's okay to use your body for a short time to give pleasure to someone else who might need to feel companionship? Yet "abstinence until marriage" doesn't send the wrong message: "you must withhold giving pleasure to the person you love until they commit to a lifetime promise of providing for you and a guarantee of loving you until you die".

....which one send the wrong message?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom