Why is prostitution illegal?

[articulett]

Yes, but you said this system works to prevent exploitation of women... the evidence does not support that claim. There are no services to transition these women to better jobs and because it is illegal, they are denied public services which might help them avoid harm.

I care about women who believe they have to have sex for money too-- but they still need to have money even if you take away the opportunity for them to make it having sex-- what is being offered in return? Why wouldn't their voices for what they need or what they think would work count more than your opinion and statements that it does work?

I just think that you are seeing Sweden's way as a solution towards women who are "exploited"-- it doesn't seem to stop any women from being exploited... legalization , on the other hand, puts the power of the law on their side and is a much better way to keep them from being exploited in my book. Granted, Sweden's solution is a better solution than arresting the women... but the women themselves don't feel helped at all by this legislation it seems... everyone but the women themselves seem to think it's a good idea.

Doesn't that matter to you? Who is better off because of this legislation again? How exactly? How does this legislation address the problem of women feeling like they have to have sex for money? Aren't the words of women who work where it IS legal an equally important factor in determining whether it should be legal or not?

Once you identify your goal you can look at various ways people have addressed the problem to see which is the best solution for achieving that goal. You have accepted a solution because you believe it works well-- the article you linked does not show that it works at all (for curbing exploitation of women) nor that it is better at decreasing exploitation or even more cost effective than legalization.

It might be... but you sure haven't made a case for such. And as such, I will go with the information I do know rather than assume that Sweden's system works better as you seem to presume.

 

[JFrankA]

Once again, I agree with articulett.

Sounds like to me that this is only half good: helping only some of the people involved.

...But they said they had not been offered any help getting off the game. One was still waiting after six months for a drug prescription.

She said that because there wasn't supposed to be prostitution, there were no drop-in centres for health checks, and no-one handing out condoms or needles.

Only one of the five had anything positive to say about the legislation.

Seems to me it's nothing but a band-aid, no really solving anything. It was mentioned several times throughout the article that there still no help from the government directly for these women. In fact, it states in the artilce that the only support center they found was privately owned and created.

I personally find it disturbing that this legistration is based upon:

The idea behind the move was that prostitution should be regarded as an aspect of male violence against women and children and therefore tackled.

This is just plain one-dimensional and simply wrong. It could be, and admittingly, there's a lot of times it is, but it's not true in every circumstance....

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2007/nov/07111506.html

In a report in Spiegel, Jonas Trolle, an inspector with the Stockholm police unit dedicated to combating prostitution said, "The goal is to criminalize the demand side of the equation, the johns, rather than putting emotionally and physically imperiled women behind bars."

The results of this strategy are impressive. "We have significantly less prostitution than our neighboring countries, even if we take into account the fact that some of it happens underground," says Trolle. "We only have between 105 and 130 women - both on the Internet and on the street - active (in prostitution) in Stockholm today. In Oslo, it's 5,000."

Another relevant aspect of the ban is the reduction of the number of foreign women now being trafficked into Sweden for sex. The Swedish government estimates that in the last few years only 200 to 400 women and girls have been annually trafficked into Sweden for prostitution, while in neighboring Finland the number is 15,000 to 17,000.

 

[articulett]

BTW, when you take away a drug addict's money, you don't solve their drug problems... you just induce them to steal to feed their habits... or to find "sugar daddies" which IS legal prostitution. You aren't really solving any problem, and you may be putting your own property at higher risk for being stolen.

Your article really seems to indicate that it drives the problem elsewhere so it looks nicer-- it doesn't really look as if anyone is being "saved" from exploitation. Moreover, you have not investigated legalization nor compared the data to see if it is more likely to meet the goals you suggested you had.

If your goal is to have things appear better... then Sweden seems to have found a solution... but if your goal is to actually to lessen the exploitation of women, then legalization is a better solution.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

BTW, when you take away a drug addict's money, you don't solve their drug problems... you just induce them to steal to feed their habits... or to find "sugar daddies" which IS legal prostitution. You aren't really solving any problem, and you may be putting your own property at higher risk for being stolen.

Your article really seems to indicate that it drives the problem elsewhere so it looks nicer-- it doesn't really look as if anyone is being "saved" from exploitation. Moreover, you have not investigated legalization nor compared the data to see if it is more likely to meet the goals you suggested you had.

Have you? If so, can you show me?

If your goal is to have things appear better... then Sweden seems to have found a solution... but if your goal is to actually to lessen the exploitation of women, then legalization is a better solution.

If you've got data to support your assertion, please show me.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Once again, I agree with articulett.

Sounds like to me that this is only half good: helping only some of the people involved.



Seems to me it's nothing but a band-aid, no really solving anything. It was mentioned several times throughout the article that there still no help from the government directly for these women. In fact, it states in the artilce that the only support center they found was privately owned and created.

How about this for a radical idea: add better social support for prostitutes to allow them to get out of prostitution as well as having a policy similar to that in Sweden.

I personally find it disturbing that this legistration is based upon:



This is just plain one-dimensional and simply wrong. It could be, and admittingly, there's a lot of times it is, but it's not true in every circumstance....

Strange how women always complain about the glass ceiling and being paid less than men for the same work in conventional employment, but somehow the vast majority prostitutes are supposedly empowered women exploiting men's weaknesses.

 

[JFrankA]

...might want to consider the source of the article as well:

LifeSiteNews.com emphasizes the social worth of traditional Judeo-Christian principles but is also respectful of all authentic religions and cultures that esteem life, family and universal norms of morality.

LifeSiteNews.com's writers and its founders, have come to understand that respect for life and family are endangered by an international conflict. That conflict is between radically opposed views of the worth and dignity of every human life and of family life and community. It has been caused by secularists attempting to eliminate Christian morality and natural law principles which are seen as the primary obstacles to implementing their new world order.

LifeSiteNews.com understands that abortion, euthanasia, cloning, homosexuality and all other moral, life and family issues are part of the international conflict affecting all nations, even at the most local levels. LifeSiteNews attempts to provide its readers with the most useful and up-to-date information on this conflict.

 

[articulett]

http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/0/5/4/7/pages105470/p105470-1.php

 

[JFrankA]

How about this for a radical idea: add better social support for prostitutes to allow them to get out of prostitution as well as having a policy similar to that in Sweden.

That little statement says to me that you agree that the legistration in Sweden doesn't work well enough.

Perhaps legalizing it fully, might encourage more support programs for prostitutes.

How's that for a radical idea!

 

[cyborg]

It's the oldest profession simply because men had and have more power than women.

No it isn't - it's because women have more power than men when it comes to sex.

Men aren't in control in this arrangement - quite how anyone could think they are is beyond me.

That some men consider women objects to be bought and sold for their sexual gratification does not mean we have to endorse that point of view.

It wasn't and isn't my point of view when I availed myself of such services after having them solicited upon me.

Sex for money isn't as monochromatic as you'd like it to be.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/0/5/4/7/pages105470/p105470-1.php

The immediate problem I see with that report:

What is Wrong With Prostitution? Assessing
Exploitation in Legal Brothels

It isn't the legal, regulated brothels I'm concerned about. It's the unregulated brothels and prostitutes, and the affect legalising prostitution has on men's attitude toward women in general.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

No it isn't - it's because women have more power than men when it comes to sex.

Men aren't in control in this arrangement - quite how anyone could think they are is beyond me.

A lot must be beyond you, then.

It wasn't and isn't my point of view when I availed myself of such services after having them solicited upon me.

Sex for money isn't as monochromatic as you'd like it to be.

Nothing ever is until you decide to draw a line. (Terribly old fashioned, I know.)

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

That little statement says to me that you agree that the legistration in Sweden doesn't work well enough.

Perhaps legalizing it fully, might encourage more support programs for prostitutes.

How's that for a radical idea!

I don't see why we can't both reduce prostitution by targeting (and helping) the men seeking it out, punish the pimps, traffickers and brothels, and help prostitutes with their problems too.

 

[JFrankA]

It isn't the legal, regulated brothels I'm concerned about. It's the unregulated brothels and prostitutes, and the affect legalising prostitution has on men's attitude toward women in general.

Sorry, I don't get the connection. So you're saying that in a world where women (and men) can legally be a prostitute, it would cause men to think that it gives them the right to abuse women more than it would in the world where women (and men) are illegal to begin with?

You must really think low of our gender.....

And speaking of which, I have to agree with cyborg:

No it isn't - it's because women have more power than men when it comes to sex.

 

[cyborg]

A lot must be beyond you, then.

You are beyond me.

Nothing ever is until you decide to draw a line. (Terribly old fashioned, I know.)

Old fashioned in the context of our English culture harks back to the kind of rose-tinted past that never existed.

I.e. old fashioned might as well be synonymous with naive or willfully ignorant.

But I still want to know - what is so magical about this line of getting paid for sex? When a man receives sex for money - and you know, it does happen - both gay and straight - do the same rules apply? Is the man being made an object by the women? Do you want out the poor male escorts and rent boys?

I don't see why we can't both reduce prostitution by targeting (and helping) the men seeking it out, punish the pimps, traffickers and brothels, and help prostitutes with their problems too.

How are you going to help the men "seeking it out," - this should be funny.

Not to mention it's beyond snobbish to presume that prostitutes need YOU to help them out with their "problems".

Part of the problem here is that you have an unrealistic view of what a woman should be/want such that any woman who receives money for sex is in automatic need of being rescued from this dire fate.

 

[JFrankA]

I don't see why we can't both reduce prostitution by targeting (and helping) the men seeking it out, punish the pimps, traffickers and brothels, and help prostitutes with their problems too.

Why is the goal to reduce prostitution? Why can't the goal be help the people who want to get out to help them get out; support the people who enjoy the business like any other job; punish the people who are using the system and the workers illegally, just like any other business; and not punish the people who want to partake in this service like any other service?

 

[cyborg]

Why is the goal to reduce prostitution?

Because it's BAD - ok? It just is.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

You are beyond me.

You wouldn't be the first person to think that.

Old fashioned in the context of our English culture harks back to the kind of rose-tinted past that never existed.

I.e. old fashioned might as well be synonymous with naive or willfully ignorant.

Maybe. Or perhaps you have a need to justify paying someone for sex by imagining the average prostitute's life is far happier than it actually is.

But I still want to know - what is so magical about this line of getting paid for sex? When a man receives sex for money - and you know, it does happen - both gay and straight - do the same rules apply? Is the man being made an object by the women?

Yes.

Do you want out the poor male escorts and rent boys?

I don't understand the question.

How are you going to help the men "seeking it out," - this should be funny.

Men who are arrested for buying sex, as well as being punished, are offered help to alter their behaviour.

Not to mention it's beyond snobbish to presume that prostitutes need YOU to help them out with their "problems".

How many prostitutes have been abused, raped, are habitual drugs users, or have STD's? Are these not problems?

Part of the problem here is that you have an unrealistic view of what a woman should be/want such that any woman who receives money for sex is in automatic need of being rescued from this dire fate.

Part of the problem here is you seem to believe the majority of prostitutes want to be prostitutes.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Just popping in another one of these threads to remind people that men are prostitutes as well. The bizarre pseudo-feminist attack of prostitution being "violence" against women is silly.

Also, for the child prostitution or human trafficking viewpoint, look at New Zealand.

The report shatters several myths with the following findings:
• Coercion is not widespread.
• Sex workers are more likely to be the victims of crime, rather than offenders.
• The links between crime and prostitution are tenuous and the report found no evidence of a specific link between them. The link between under-aged prostitutes and youth gangs is often a case of underage people hanging around with friends who happen to be in youth gangs.
• The reasons people joined and stayed in the sex industry are complex, however money was the main reason.
• Fewer than 17 per cent said they are working to support drug or alcohol use, although when broken down by sector street-based sex workers are more likely to report needing to pay for drugs or alcohol (45 per cent).
• The perceived scale of a ‘problem’ in a community can be directly linked to the amount and tone of media coverage it gets.
• Much of the reporting on the numbers of sex workers and underage involvement in prostitution has been exaggerated.
• There is no link in New Zealand between the sex industry and human trafficking.

Linky.

Also, the overall number of prostitutes remained the same, and this was five years after the decriminalization.

But if you insist on making it a gender exploitation issue, then I insist that you include a provision allowing me to continue to be a ho .

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Part of the problem here is you seem to believe the majority of prostitutes want to be prostitutes.

And this argument is annoying as well.

Most prostitutes do it for the money (see previous studies). Hey, I sell my body to McDonald's and do labor so I can get the money I need to survive too. Am I being exploited?

It is really silly.