Why is homosexuality wrong?

[zombiebex]

I've got a bit of a theory as to where the "homosexuality is wrong" comes from, and it has a lot to do with the Christian guilt and hatred of sexuality. We're not supposed to enjoy sex, as awesome as it is, it's just supposed to be this dirty thing we have to do to make kids.

Now, two members of the same gender having sex are having sex for pleasure -GASP!- rather than it's "intended" purpose. So that's strike one.

Next next "evil" that is in homosexuality has to do with homosexual men. When Fundies talk about the evils of homosexuality, they nearly always talk about gay men. This has a lot to do with how we define men and women in our nutty Puritanical patriarchal culture. Women are sexual. Women possess all the sexuality, and must be "conquered" for sex. A woman is to be desired for sex and used for sex by a man. So a man who would possess sexuality that he can willingly give to a partner like a woman just screws up all definitions of what is man and what is woman.

Another issue is rape, tying in with the definitions of man and woman. A woman who is lower than man, who is less than man, who is to be used for sex... a woman can be raped. A man cannot, or rather by the "definitions," should not be raped. Enter in the very idea that a man can be violated in the same way as a woman, can be lowered to the standard that is "woman," can be terrifying.

So, it's all about shame, guilt, power over women, and the sexes needing to be clearly defined as either one or the other.

 

[drkitten]

I've got a bit of a theory as to where the "homosexuality is wrong" comes from, and it has a lot to do with the Christian guilt and hatred of sexuality. We're not supposed to enjoy sex, as awesome as it is, it's just supposed to be this dirty thing we have to do to make kids.

Nice theory, but there are a few holes in it. Basically, if you check the Biblical injunctions listed above, a number of them are from Leviticus, which is part of the Jewish tradition and predates Christianity and Christian thought by a few thousand years. And Jewish thought is not particularly anti-sex; in fact, sex for pleasure within marriage is specifically a mitzvot, regardless of the making-kids aspect.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

Copied from some website

Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination." ​

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them" ​

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God." ​

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper." ​

I've seen these stanzas (wrong word, I know, but my brain just froze up on the right one) before, and I've always wondered how accurate the translation is. For example, I've heard that the first one quoted here can be interpreted as "Don't have sex with a man in the same bed where you have sex with a woman." It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but makes more sense than some other parts of the Bible.

Anyone know what the best translations of these verses are?

 

[Oliver]

Copied from some website


Lev. 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them"

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

And you're sure it's not one of the hundred-thousands of mistranslations
and re-interpretations?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh.htm

Anyway: It furthers my point that all the guys in the bible are X-holes,
especially the ones trying to make sense out of this "is brown and smells".

 

[zombiebex]

Nice theory, but there are a few holes in it. Basically, if you check the Biblical injunctions listed above, a number of them are from Leviticus, which is part of the Jewish tradition and predates Christianity and Christian thought by a few thousand years. And Jewish thought is not particularly anti-sex; in fact, sex for pleasure within marriage is specifically a mitzvot, regardless of the making-kids aspect.

Didn't know that, but I would blame that on the roles of men and women and how women were viewed back then. Women weren't equal. They were to be bought, married, used for sex and to bear children. A man who allows himself to be lowered to the level of a woman and allows a man to have sex with him is appalling, and a man who would use another man for sex, dropping him to the "female" status, should also be punished.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I've seen these stanzas (wrong word, I know, but my brain just froze up on the right one) before, and I've always wondered how accurate the translation is. For example, I've heard that the first one quoted here can be interpreted as "Don't have sex with a man in the same bed where you have sex with a woman." It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but makes more sense than some other parts of the Bible.

Anyone know what the best translations of these verses are?

That does not seem to be a usable form of "as", for that reading to work it would have to be "where".

Of course strict readings are silly as male homosexuals can not have vaginal intercourse, and I don't think there is much support for other forms of sexual activity. But I am also unaware of general oral or anal prohibitions.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

To wit, here are two versions from the same website:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

9Or do you not know that the unrighteous[a] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceivedA) neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

The first specifically mentions homosexuals. The second limits it to homosexual men. And the third doesn't mention homosexuality at all (just being effeminate!).

Particularly interesting is that the one that doesn't specifically mention it is the King James Version, which as I understand, is generally the most widely used version.

They can't all be proper translations. I wonder which is closest?

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

I've seen these stanzas (wrong word, I know, but my brain just froze up on the right one) before, and I've always wondered how accurate the translation is. For example, I've heard that the first one quoted here can be interpreted as "Don't have sex with a man in the same bed where you have sex with a woman."

I always took it to mean that queers have to do it standing up.

 

[zombiebex]

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

I've heard/read somewhere that the word homosexuals in this passage is originally a slang term for male prostitute... lemme see if I can dig that up...

 

[ponderingturtle]

Didn't know that, but I would blame that on the roles of men and women and how women were viewed back then. Women weren't equal. They were to be bought, married, used for sex and to bear children. A man who allows himself to be lowered to the level of a woman and allows a man to have sex with him is appalling, and a man who would use another man for sex, dropping him to the "female" status, should also be punished.

This certainly fits with roman views of sex, but I am not sure it fits with Jewish ones. Romans held it was important for a proper roman man to be the penetrator, it did not matter so much what he penetrated.

And oral sex was right out, as that would corrupt the mouth and who would take anything they had to say seriously?

 

[The Atheist]

It appears to go against His usual justice.

Bollocks. It's completely in keeping with the christian god's ideas of justice and fairness:

"The world is wicked, so I'm going to kill everyone, including all of the innocent children, drowning them in their cribs!" Genesis 6:7

"Dirty fags! I'm going to kill all the children in Sodom as well!" Genesis 19:24

"Incest, the family game!" Genesis 19:31

"You're an atheist! I'm going to kill you and all of your descendants for the next FOUR generations, you scum!" Exodus 20:5

"People with leprosy are unclean and unworthy of me." Leviticus 13:3

 

[ponderingturtle]

The first specifically mentions homosexuals. The second limits it to homosexual men. And the third doesn't mention homosexuality at all (just being effeminate!).

This is not true, remember masterbation was defined as self abuse, so "abusers of themselves with men" would certainly seem to be male homosexuals

 

[zombiebex]

Aha, here's the info I was looking for:

The NIV and KJV of the Bible clearly condemn homosexual behavior at 1 Corinthians 6:9 and Romans 1:28 in the Christian Scriptures. These translations generally interpret the Greek words "malakoi"and "arsenokoitai" as referring to homosexuals. We can be fairly certain that this is not the meaning that Paul wanted to convey. If he had, he would have used the Greek word "paiderasste." That was the standard term at the time for male homosexuals. We can conclude that he probably meant something different from persons who engaged in male-male adult sexual behavior. Down through the years, Christians have interpreted these words as referring to people of lacking a high moral standing, or to masturbators, or to men who sexually abuse boys, or to boys who are the victims of sexual abuse. Interpreting these passages as referring to sexually active homosexuals is simply the latest in a long series of attempts to make sense out of obscure words. The precise meaning is unknown.

 

[grayman]

"If loving you is wrong, I don't want to be right..."

 

[The Atheist]

And the third doesn't mention homosexuality at all (just being effeminate!).

Isn't a bloke being effeminate enough of a crime?

I always took it to mean that queers have to do it standing up.

Neeeeeearly.

The bible specifically states that "if you do a bloke as you do a woman"

I see that as:

Daisy chains are fine.

Doggy is not.

"If loving you is wrong, I don't want to be right..."

Hmmm.

If I'm always right and loving you would certainly be wrong....






You free Saturday Night?

 

[grayman]

Hmmm.

If I'm always right and loving you would certainly be wrong....






You free Saturday Night?

Yes, but my Saturday night will be your Sunday morning, and I wouldn't want you to miss church.

 

[Dancing David]

It's wrong because homosexuals are in the minority. Duh.

Just like it's wrong to be left-handed or play the bagpipe.

They aren't really, many men in many macho cultures practice all sorts of homosexuality, especialy on their younger brothers. Then there is the whole down low thing, 'I have gay sex but I am not a homosexual'.

 

[grayman]

They aren't really, many men in many macho cultures practice all sorts of homosexuality, especialy on their younger brothers. Then there is the whole down low thing, 'I have gay sex but I am not a homosexual'.

Like the shirt I saw says, "I'm not gay, but my boyfriend is".

 

[Hokulele]

Those quotes from Leviticus are about sex? And all this time I thought they meant that you can only be dishonest about appearances and money with women, and dishonest about sports figures and *ahem* personal statistics with men.

 

[plumjam]

It's wrong because it hurts