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Why is concrete dust important?

Whacky punk Hoffman at least got one thing right about the cieling tiles. There were millions and they did contribute to what we saw. They can be ground to a powder under a boot heel.

Maybe someone with better math skills than mine could start another thread to calculate the amounts of dust that would have to be generated to reproduce what we saw. We have at least approximate values for all substances present which would create dust. We can plug these values into the equation to determine what percentage of these materials must be pulverised to produce that much dust.

Balsac-Vitry would also be a good baseline specimen, since we know that none of that dust was explosively-generated.


The ceiling tiles alone at 5/8 of an inch thick work out to a very approximate volume of 400 thousand cubic feet both towers combined. subtracting a percentage for T grid itself and lay in light fixtures, I took out about 28%

Hoffman makes a ignorant claim that they are 20 inches by 20 inches, but moron that he is, they are 24 inches by 24 inches for a two by two grid which is uncommon for commercial office space. most common are 24 x 48
 
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Come on, can't we get one Truther in here to explain this? They love to talk about dust in the other threads.
 
Come on, can't we get one Truther in here to explain this? They love to talk about dust in the other threads.

They avoid threads that they did not start themselves and bring them into contact with reality.
 
The ceiling tiles alone at 5/8 of an inch thick work out to a very approximate volume of 400 thousand cubic feet both towers combined.

Okay. We may be getting somewhere here. Write that down.Then, we need the volumn of undamaged drywall and Epsom board or whatever kind of wall board they might have used in place of gypsum board for space dividers.

Add up all of the matrials that would form dust or sand-like clouds when ground and pounded.

Concrete, glass, particle board office furniture, spray-on fire resistant foam, coffee cups. (Some of these might be hard to quantify. Anyone want to give it a shot?)

Then we need to calculate the size of the dust plume.

Anyone want to bet we can find a big error in Hoffman's values? Attached to that brain, I doubt that his Mark I eyeball is all that well-calibrated.
 
Maybe someone with better math skills than mine could start another thread to calculate the amounts of dust that would have to be generated to reproduce what we saw. We have at least approximate values for all substances present which would create dust. We can plug these values into the equation to determine what percentage of these materials must be pulverised to produce that much dust.



I did something similar, trying to estimate the amount of dust based on reports of how thick the layer of dust was after it settled out.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65850

I know others have done similar calculations, so it might be worth looking for them.

ETA: here's some more detailed work:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71857 Scroll down for the good stuff.
 
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I did something similar, trying to estimate the amount of dust based on reports of how thick the layer of dust was after it settled out.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65850

I know others have done similar calculations, so it might be worth looking for them.

ETA: here's some more detailed work:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71857 Scroll down for the good stuff.

These discussions never came to a close and I think had some numbers wrong or missing.

Mass of concrete in towers

I generally suspect that many authors overestimate the mass of the towers. For example, one often reads 500ktons per tower total, yet the only painstaking tallying I have seen so far of all materials, done by G. Urich, came up with less than 300ktons.

Frank Greening estimated (on page 2) that the twin towers had 627 tons of concrete per office floor, and most of it was lightweight (1500kg/m3). His numbers for volume per floor work out to (109.5 + 289.4)m3 = 398.9m3
So the 2 towers had a total amount of concrete above basements of (multiplying by 220 floors) about
  • 87,758 m3
  • 137,940,000 kg
with an average density of about 1570kg/m3.

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Density of dust

I think one consideration that the previous discussions did not mention or assess (though I may be mistaken, I only scanned the threads) is the fact that the Manhattan dust, estimated by Horatius to consist of 25% concrete on average, was 75% other materials, with fibers being quite dominant by volume, such that the density of the dust would not be dominated by the density of the concrete, but by fibers. 1500kg/m3 is almost certainly too much, even though pure concrete dust could conceivably be denser than intact concrete slabs on account of light-weight concrete slabs having inclusions of air on purpose (that's why they are light-weight).

But since I have no better number (does anybody have better numbers?), it is still safe to go with the density of intact concrete. Which is less than the previous discussions assumed.

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Distribution function not linear

The previous discussions seemed to assume that all the dust settled only outside of the tower footprints, or that its thickness inside the foorprint was a linear extrapolation of the thickness outside - which is modelled as a cylinder; Horatius also hints at a cone. I think this is wrong; There is probably quite a disproportionate amount of dust inside the footprints and the debris field (mixed with larger particle and fragment sizes, of course), with layer thickness decreasing not linearly but according to some convex function that's asymptotic to zero as distance increases. Not sure I have the mind to model this mathematically.

I also think that cutting the distribution function off at r=800m or some such random choice carries the risk of underestimating the amount of dust that settled even further, or got airborne altogether.

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Particle size and dust volume

Greening estimates (page 10) that 50% of the concrete (by weight) would have been crushed to particles larger than 1mm (that's not dust and would have settled nearly entirely within the debris field), 25% to particles between 10µm and 1mm (coarse dust, mostly settled "close" to GZ) and 25% to particles <10µm (fine dust). So up to half of the concrete could have settled outside of the main debris field.
This particle size distribution is predicted from applying 15% of the available potential energy of the towers to just crtushing concrete. Greening argues convincingly that this amount of energy is a practical limit, more energy would not effectively crush the concrete much further.

On page 15, Greening estimates a volume of the total dust (not only concrete) outside the main debris field of 100,000m3, having a mass of 120,000,000kg. Deviating from Greening now and using Horatius' previous numbers, the concrete dust then is 25% of that or 40,000 tons - just under 30% of the total amount of concrete in the twin towers. Seing that the available potential energy would be more than sufficient to crush 50% of the dust to particle size small enough for them to travel away from the footprint, this is a good fit under a theory that nuthing but gravitaional collapse produced all the dust.

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Airborne dust: A back-of-the-envelope calculation

Only dust particle <10µm remain airborne minutes after the collapse. If we assume that 25% of the concrete (34,500,000 kg) was crushed this finely, and that 1% of this remained airborne for a while, and that average density of airborne dust is up to 100mg/m3 - make that 30mg/m3 on average, then this dust could have filled up to 1,035,000,000m3 of air, or a block 400m high (approx. height of the towers were) and 1 mile square. I certainly overestimate the dust density quite massively, but we do get the idea that indeed the dust that was observed, both on the ground and in the air, is absolutely compatible with what to expect when only a minor part of the availabe potential energy comes crushing down on 220 floors of concrete.

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Don't forget WTC7

In all those calculations we disregarded the buildings other than the twin towers. WTC7 had a volume of about 700,000m3 which is 21% the volume of both twin towers combined (above ground). Assuming that concrete had a distribution in building 7 similar to that of WTC1 and 2, we can thus increase all our estimates of concrete available for dusting Manhattan by 20%.

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ETA

Conclusion:
Meticulous calculations of the available amount of concrete, the available potential energy, the expected particle size distribution from applying a modest portion of that energy, and the volume and mass of the dust observed on the ground in Manhattan and in the air above New York suggest that 30-50% of the concrete settled around GZ according to both observation and the prevailing theory of gravitational collapse caused by fire and plane impacts.
 
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As there is still nothing here I will make the following appeal: should a Truther bring up concrete dust in other threads don't respond to the details of their post but instead link back to this thread and ask them to answer it first.
 
I just don't get how thermite is supposed to create dust from concrete.

In that old Popular Mechanics article Dave Thomas found about the thermite being used to demolish a tower, the thermite was contained in big concrete buckets to stop it spilling out when burning. Concrete is thermite kryptonite, yes?
 
Depending on the type of concrete I'd imagine that thermite could cause some pretty bad spalling.
 
Depending on the type of concrete I'd imagine that thermite could cause some pretty bad spalling.

Could melt some components of concrete, too, and turn it into a glassy sort of material. None of which was found and described, afaik.
 
Depending on the type of concrete I'd imagine that thermite could cause some pretty bad spalling.
I once produced a four-inch wide concoidal chip of concrete by setting off a shaped thermite charge in an eight-ounce styrofoam cup.
 
Are we including the spray-on fire resistant foam with the concrete? It is chemicly almost identical to concrete, differing mostly in that it has a lot of air and mineral fibers entrained in it. I think they got only about ten stories up with asbestos before the codes were changed and they had to switch to rock wool.
 
Remember back when Truthers were claiming there was so much asbestos in the buildings that they were going to have to demolish them?
 
Remember back when Truthers were claiming there was so much asbestos in the buildings that they were going to have to demolish them?

They still are. JREF Forum member Burning Beard was saying the other day he was looking up how many floors in the towers had asbestos as he was debating a truther.
 
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The dust is imported because The Man wants you to believe that since there is no domestic supply of dust they have to keep the price artificially high.

Follow the monkey people: Cue Bono!!!
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