Why I will vote against Bush - BJU

[CBL4]

I have lived in many southern towns, and truth be told I found racism in them, but less than what I found in Washington, CT, and Oregon, and even here in the peoples republic of Santa Cruz.

I have lived in Virginia, Maryland, Oregon and Washington. I found Washington and, particularly, Oregon less racist. Perhaps this is the location within the states or perhaps it is because there were fewer blacks.

I have never seen anything to match the racism in tiny towns in Alabama and Georgia. My experiences in the deep south were thoroughly unpleasant with regard to racism. I did not see this in the other blue collar places I visited.

People like David Duke, Jesse Helms, Robert Byrd and George Wallace do not win elections in the west. Republicans do not pay homage to segregationists a la Trent Lott. BJU is located in the south. The Southern Baptists are the most anti-gay large sect in America.

The reality is that to win a southern Republican primary, you need support of a large number of bigots. Winning Republicans use coded messages to pander to them. Bush's visit to BJU was slightly worse than most campaigns but not extreme. This not to say that all white Republicans are bigots but a large enoguh minority are to mean that you cannot win if you piss them off.

CBL

 

[SRW]

Unless you disagree with my characterization of BJU being among the most notoriously, bigoted university in the country I cannot come up with a good spin. He spoke there and no one was fired because of it.

The possibilities that I see are:
1) Ignorant and incompetent with an ignorant and incompetant staff. (Incompent because no one bothered to look for any information about BJU before going there.)
2) Ignorant with a staff that knowingly panders to racists and misleads him about why he is speaking there. (Since there were no firings, Bush would have to be content with a pandering and misleading staff once he found about BJU.)
3) Panderer to racist.
4) Racist
Am I missing something?

Personally, I think calling him an opportunist politician who will pander to racists to win an election as the best I can think of. What is your prefered option?

CBL

What Bush said when Mc Cain Called him Anti-Catholic.

`I reject bigotry and I repudiate anti-Catholicism and racism and I reject the politics of those who try to pit one group of Americans against another and those who try divide us based upon our race or based upon our faith,'' Bush said.

Was it a mistake for him to not say that at the University when he was there? Yes.

Is there anything that he has done in the last four years that would lead you to believe he is a racist?

If you are against gay marriage does that make you a homophobe?

If you’re against abortion are you a sexist?

If you are religious do you hate atheists?

Kerry speaks at a Catholic church - The Catholic Church is anti-gay therefore Kerry is anti-gay. That is flawed logic and so is yours.

You also stated that the black and liberal student where the only ones who disagreed with the raciest doctrine of the school that banned interracial dating. Your assumption is that all blacks and all white liberals approve of interracial marriage. That stinks of stereotyping to me. (Did you know that, the rule was put in place, because an Orental parent was upset that his son what dating a white girl)?

There are many more important issues than one speech at a small southern University.

I for one am still waiting for someone to give me one compelling reason why I should vote for Kerry other than he is not Bush.

 

[SRW]

I have never seen anything to match the racism in tiny towns in Alabama and Georgia. My experiences in the deep south were thoroughly unpleasant with regard to racism. I did not see this in the other blue collar places I visited.


CBL

In Washington, my next door neighbor was black; I saw a 35 year old man beat the crap out of their 12 year old son for trespassing.

In conn. Kids at my school played a game called coon koonking. Where you put a rock in a sock and conk a coon. Here in Santa Cruz Teenagers would go out and beat up trolls (ex hippies). In L.A. I was stabbed for being at a park that belonged to the Hispanics. I also had a black landlord who attempted to kick me out of my apartment, when my Chinese wife moved in. I won’t even mention some of the things that happened in New York’s China town when I went into a restaurant with my wife.

There is no need to make up “covert” raciest additudes, there is enough of the overt stuff to go around.

 

[CBL4]

SRW,

I have never called Bush a racist. I said he pandered to bigots.

Bush spoke at BJU which is among the most notoriously bigoted university in the country. Please either dispute my facts or give me an full explanation that paints Bush in a decent light.

Characterizing it as an "honest mistake" is interesting but incomplete. I am a software engineer and I was aware of BJU bigotry since the Supreme Court case over 15 years earlier. Here is a quote from Slate made at the time:

The fact that Bob Jones University bans interracial dating is the only thing most people know about Bob Jones University. It has been a national issue for more than a decade. Indeed, Bob Jones III called W.'s father a "devil" when he took the position that the university should lose its tax-exempt status because of its discriminatory policies. For candidate Bush to be so clueless as to be unaware of this history would almost be worse than his lying about it.

http://slate.msn.com/id/1004636/
No one on his staff knew that Bob Jones III (the chancellor) called Bush's father a devil? No one on his staff new that BJU had lost a supreme court battle? No one on his staff knew that they had a racist dating policy? No one on the staff knew of Bob Jones I, II or III anti-Catholic venom? Is your defense of Bush that he and his staff are ignorant and do not do their homework?

I give him the benefit of the doubt and say he panders to racists. If you call him incompentent, I would have to disagree. He is much cannier than that.

CBL

 

[SRW]

SRW,

I have never called Bush a racist. I said he pandered to bigots.

Bush spoke at BJU which is among the most notoriously bigoted university in the country. Please either dispute my facts or give me an full explanation that paints Bush in a decent light.

Characterizing it as an "honest mistake" is interesting but incomplete. I am a software engineer and I was aware of BJU bigotry since the Supreme Court case over 15 years earlier. Here is a quote from Slate made at the time:http://slate.msn.com/id/1004636/
No one on his staff knew that Bob Jones III (the chancellor) called Bush's father a devil? No one on his staff new that BJU had lost a supreme court battle? No one on his staff knew that they had a racist dating policy? No one on the staff knew of Bob Jones I, II or III anti-Catholic venom? Is your defense of Bush that he and his staff are ignorant and do not do their homework?

I give him the benefit of the doubt and say he panders to racists. If you call him incompentent, I would have to disagree. He is much cannier than that.

CBL

I have no way of knowing which University is the most racist in the county. And I have no way of knowing if Bush's intention was to "pander to bigots". Bush apologized after he spoke there and condemned their policies. For me that is good enough.

How someone behaves while in public office is far more important to me than what they did on the campaign.

Do you believe when Clinton went there he was pandering to the black vote?

 

[Snide]

Do you believe when Clinton went there he was pandering to the black vote?

I would imagine he was pandering, at most, to liberal and centrist voters.

 

[Vorticity]

Can you find some more links on this... if it is as you describe, it does trouble me... but I'm startled I've never heard of it. What colleges had this? Was the "Police Corps" the ROTC-type deal itself, or the agency they joined afterwards? Can I find an official charter of this organization somewhere ? Or even some quotes from Clinton and Reno praising it...

I remember Clinton instituted a servce corps called AmeriCorps. Is that the same thing?

I assume you're kidding?

My girlfriend was in Americorp for about a year. They help out the teachers in inner-city schools and other community-based stuff like that. Think Peace Corps inside the U.S.

No throat-slitting, I swear.

 

[crimresearch]

Nothing in common that I am aware of.

One of the most interesting solutions to below grade level reading that I ever heard of came from an AmeriCorps volunteer in the 'America Reads' program.

She took 5th graders who were way behind, and instead of putting them in remedial classes, she made them reading mentors for 2nd graders...inside of a year many of the 5th graders were reading above grade level, and feeling good about themselves, and the 2nd graders were reading at or above grade level as well...

The school administration hated the idea, and shut it down, returning to the old method of labelling the slow readers, and helping them to catch up to their classmates by going back over 1st grade material.

 

[CBL4]

SRW,

I think I can sum up your position as:
1) He did nothing wrong (equivalent to speaking in a Catholic church.)
2) He made an honest mistake (no clarification about what the mistake was or whether it was through incompetence or not realizing the wrongness of his talk.)
3) It was wrong but irrellevant.
4) It was wrong but because he apologized, it does not matter.
5) It was wrong but because people in Santa Cruz are more racist, it does not matter.
6) It is wrong to pander to racists but because Clinton pandered to blacks, it does not matter.
7) It was wrong but because BJU may not be the most racist University, it does not matter.
8) Because you have no way of knowing his motivation, it does not matter (but you cannot come up with any explanation that puts him in a good light.)

Is this an accurate statement of your position?

I keep asking your to give a complete explanation of Bush's action that puts him in a better light. Your refusal to do so implies that you cannot.

CBL

 

[CBL4]

I have been indirectly asked why I think speaking at BJU matters.

The obvious reason is not the important. Clearly it says that Bush does not really care about racists and will associate with him. But while this is dispicable, it a personal character flaw which may or may not matter in his role as president.

The reason it matters is because if a non-racist will pander to racists to get votes, it demonstrate an attitude that the means justify the end. This is not just a personal character flaw, it shows a mentality that will almost undoubtedly be seen in a presidents conduct in office.

For example,
1) In order to get a medicare program passed, a president may lie about the cost of a medicare program and threaten someone to hide the truth.
2) In order to preserve national security, the president may decide that he can jail anyone forever without any judicial review.
3) In order to justify a war, the president may claim false links between an evil dictator and an evil terrrorist group.
4) In order to preserve national security, a president may decide it is good to send people to be tortured in another country.
5) In order to fight terrror, the president may decide people the military captures have no rights as POW or criminals.

Of course, these are all hypothetical and there is no way that an good, honest man would do these things.

CBL

 

[SRW]

CBL [/B][/QUOTE]

2)

Is this an accurate statement of your position?

I keep asking your to give a complete explanation of Bush's action that puts him in a better light. Your refusal to do so implies that you cannot.

He made an honest mistake (no clarification about what the mistake was or whether it was through incompetence or not realizing the wrongness of his talk.)

This is the only one you got partially correct. You can put the rest of your strawmen to bed.

It is not my fault if you cannot follow properly among separate thought lines.

To be clear my feelings about whether or not racism exists in places other than the south has nothing to do with Bush speaking at BJU.

As far as what the mistake was, I used a quote from bush to clarify that also. He should have stated clearly his disagreement with BJU, while he was there. The fact that latter apologized, and has not behaved in a bigoted manner, while president, makes, the entire incident irrelevant in my opinion.

As you apparently did not understand my question about Clinton I'll give you my answer.

I do not know if he was or not. However because of his actions as president in support of civil rights I believe he was speaking truthfully.

 

[CBL4]

As far as what the mistake was, I used a quote from bush to clarify that also. He should have stated clearly his disagreement with BJU, while he was there.

I totally agree that when he went to BJU, this is what he should have done but he did not. You are not answering my real question:

Why did he go to BJU?

There are lots of conservative and/or Christian locales in South Carolina. But Bush went to the one that is most identified with bigotry. Why? I have given all the explanations that I can think of. You have not given one except to say it was a mistake. This is not an answer.

What could he possibly be thinking when he went there? I know we cannot know for sure but please give me any explanation that does not put him in a bad light.

CBL

 

[DavidJames]

You have not given one except to say it was a mistake. This is not an answer.

It was no mistake, every presidential candidate appearance is planned in a calculating way to make a statement, send a message, as was, I'm sure, this one. He goes, appeases that part of his constituency and later "says whoops", wink wink and they all wink and nod knowingly.

Of course I don't have any evidence to support this, other than common sense and being around politics for 40 years.

 

[CBL4]

It was no mistake, every presidential candidate appearance is planned in a calculating way to make a statement, send a message, as was, I'm sure, this one. He goes, appeases that part of his constituency and later "says whoops", wink wink and they all wink and nod knowingly.

Not Bush! He is a stand up Christian kind of guy. He picked BJU because he knew of a great barbeque joint next to the campus.

CBL

Edited for VB error.

 

[SRW]

I totally agree that when he went to BJU, this is what he should have done but he did not. You are not answering my real question:

Why did he go to BJU?

There are lots of conservative and/or Christian locales in South Carolina. But Bush went to the one that is most identified with bigotry. Why? I have given all the explanations that I can think of. You have not given one except to say it was a mistake. This is not an answer.

What could he possibly be thinking when he went there? I know we cannot know for sure but please give me any explanation that does not put him in a bad light.

CBL

Yes you can speculate all you want, I however was not in on the decision. So I cannot guess. There are many possibilities; you are only going to believe the ones you want to. I myself don't think it is important enough to fret over. And tend to give people the benefit of the doubt unless proven otherwise.

Personally I think it was a calculated move on his part to alienate Liberals and moderates, as that seems to be the group most affected.

 

[SRW]

It was no mistake, every presidential candidate appearance is planned in a calculating way to make a statement, send a message, as was, I'm sure, this one. He goes, appeases that part of his constituency and later "says whoops", wink wink and they all wink and nod knowingly.

Of course I don't have any evidence to support this, other than common sense and being around politics for 40 years.

We should move this to the paranormal section, my answer was "I don't know, however it was a mistake not to critic the University at the time" . When I have the same PSI powers as you seem to have I'll let you know. After I pick up the JREF Million.

Regan was in politics for more than 40 years, although I would no lend much credence to the last 10, what is your excuse?

 

[CBL4]

Yes you can speculate all you want, I however was not in on the decision. So I cannot guess. There are many possibilities; you are only going to believe the ones you want to. I myself don't think it is important enough to fret over

You could guess but you choose not to. I assume this is because you do not have any one that puts Bush in a good light. Don't feel alone, no else does either. BTW, those well known liberals John McCain and Alan Keyes happen to agree with me.

As to not finding it important, that is kind of silly claim after making 9 posts. Clearly I struck something inside you.

I thank you for your politeness in the debate. I also thank you for confirming my opinion of Bush.

CBL

 

[SRW]

You could guess but you choose not to. I assume this is because you do not have any one that puts Bush in a good light. Don't feel alone, no else does either. BTW, those well known liberals John McCain and Alan Keyes happen to agree with me.

As to not finding it important, that is kind of silly claim after making 9 posts. Clearly I struck something inside you.

I thank you for your politeness in the debate. I also thank you for confirming my opinion of Bush.

CBL

I cannot honestly guess and or make excuses for Bush's actions; it would be dishonest of me to do so. Also as a database admin I find guessing counterproductive.

FYI Keyes also spoke at BJU and failed to criticize them for their raciest policies. Again I do not know why, however my gut would tell me it was not to pander to bigots.

You did strike a nerve and it is that I abhor political correctness.

Anyway your alright I don't care what everyone else says about you.

 

[CBL4]

FYI Keyes also spoke at BJU and failed to criticize them for their raciest policies.

Actually when Alan Keyes spoke at BJU, he politely criticized them:

There are folks who don't think I should be talking to Bob Jones University, in fact. You know that, don't you? I hope you understand this. They said I shouldn't come here, because I am a black person, and there are these terrible policies about interracial dating. (CBL's emphasis) They said I shouldn't come because I am--I say it with pride and certainty--a Roman Catholic Christian. And that I would not be received in this place, on that account.
...
If the demon of racial prejudice stands between you and what God wants, then I'm here to challenge you: you won't get what you want for this country until you cast that demon out.

If the demon of sectarian bigotry stands between you and what God wants, you won't get what God wants for this country until you cast that demon aside.

http://www.renewamerica.us/archives/speeches/00_02_14bobjones.htm

CBL

 

[CBL4]

Did Bush Know About Bob Jones' Racist Policies? Towards the end of the South Carolina campaign, reports had George W. Bush saying he did not know about Bob Jones University's racist policies until sometime after he went there and gave his speech. That would make Bush the only candidate not aware of the school's racist policies, an unlinkely event, particularly since Bob Jones' president trashed his father in highly-publicized statements not many years ago and we are often reminded of Junior's obsessive loyality to his family. Since Dubya is now willing to say he is against such policies, the implication is that he would not have gone to Bob Jones or, at the very least, he would have said something negative about the policies if he had known. Yet, last Wednesday the AP's Ron Fournier reported that Bush knew about these policies in advance of his speech. In fact, he was warned about the consequences of giving a speech at racist Bob Jones and he went anyway. Fournier: "He visited Bob Jones University, a hotbed of South Carolina conservatism. Some advisers urged him not to go, fearing the institution's segregationist history would become a general election campaign issue – along with other recent efforts to tack to the right." Bush's response through spokesperson Mindy Tucker implied votes were more important than both family loyalty and anti-racist principles: ""From our point of view, this is a place where there are a lot of South Carolina conservative voters." If Bush were to disavow advance knowledge of Bob Jones' racist policies in less conservative states, let's hope that he'll be reminded of Fournier's AP report in order to set the record straight. --Politex, 2/20/00

http://www.bushnews.com/blacks.htm