Why Hariri was killed

[geni]

Hezbollah has said that if the Prime Minister in any way accepts the UN report they will walk out and cause the minority government to fall

And then what? The demographics have shifted since the last civil war. The shia are close to having an outright majority and Hezbollah are better equipped than any other player in the area unless Isreal wants to get involved again.

 

[MG1962]

And then what? The demographics have shifted since the last civil war. The shia are close to having an outright majority and Hezbollah are better equipped than any other player in the area unless Isreal wants to get involved again.

Syria invade in support of Hezbollah, Israel invades in support of the Christian south - rinse and repeat - helping tp bring a civil war near you since 1973

 

[geni]

Good god. They're an Iranian proxy army that moonlight as enforcers for the brutal Syrian occupation. How's that good for Lebanon's security?

Are you suggesting the US second amendment is wrong?

In any case if Hezbollah were that straighforward we could deal with them. I expect we still have enough money around to outbid Iran.

Heh if you define security as free from foreign occupation then Hezbollah have been extreme good for lebanese security. Got the IDF and their SLA proxies out of southern lebanon (and later gave them a miserable time when they came back in). Accidently sent in course a train of events that got syrian forces out. They've also kept the various palistian groups from being able to reestablish themselves in souther lebanon which may or may not count.

Without Hezbollah it's unlikely that there would be a lebanese goverment for them to threaten. But then lebanon has always had a certian black comerdy to it.

 

[geni]

Syria invade in support of Hezbollah, Israel invades in support of the Christian south - rinse and repeat - helping tp bring a civil war near you since 1973

The Maronites (and the other non shia groups) are mostly in northern lebanon. The demographics have shifted since the 70s. Hezbollah have numbers on their side and are unlikely to need Syria. It's not in Isreal's interests to try and start a civil war in lebanon. To much chance of Hezbollah winning.

 

[WildCat]

Are you suggesting the US second amendment is wrong?

What part of the 2nd Amendment gives political parties the right to their own private armies allowing them to ignore the law at their leisure?

Horrible analogy geni.

 

[geni]

What part of the 2nd Amendment gives political parties the right to their own private armies allowing them to ignore the law at their leisure?

Horrible analogy geni.

The point being addressed was were Hezbollah were justified in keeping their arms. Not does their use of those arms fall within the bounds of what is generaly considered to be legitimate political discourse at the present time.

 

[Eddie Dane]

The Hariri murder was just one of many.
As I recall, quite a few politicians, judges and what not got blown up.

The pattern seemed to be that all these were opponents of Hezbollah.

That country is in some deep doodoo. There unity government depends on the support of a party that is financed by a foreign state and has a private militia that not only unilaterally declared war on a much stronger state, has now apparently assassinated the frigging prime minister.

Nice.

So, what if the place goes to hell in hand-basket again?

Hizbollah get support from Iran and has apparently received a large number of much better rockets and other hardware.
I suppose that the Saudi's will be giving help to the Sunni factions if a conflict breaks out? Will the west back the Christians?

 

[gumboot]

I can trace my ancestors back to 1894. My great-great grandfather owned a saloon in Minsk, Russia. That's as far back as we know.

Slave owners? There's no evidence of that. But thanks.

If you go back far enough everyone was either a slaver or a slave owner...

 

[Virus]

The point being addressed was were Hezbollah were justified in keeping their arms. Not does their use of those arms fall within the bounds of what is generaly considered to be legitimate political discourse at the present time.

And you think, in violation of UN resolutions, that they were. In fact you practically consider Hezbollah's existence a blessing.

Probably not the wisest choice of thread to extol your support for a terrorist organization, given that the topic is about how they murdered the Prime Minister and 23 innocent bystanders.

 

[angrysoba]

And you think, in violation of UN resolutions, that they were. In fact you practically consider Hezbollah's existence a blessing.

Probably not the wisest choice of thread to extol your support for a terrorist organization, given that the topic is about how they murdered the Prime Minister and 23 innocent bystanders.

Yeah, but what about Israel and ... er... the second amendment... and... er... Israel! They had TWO terrorist Prime Ministers so...er... Rafik Hariri wasn't Shia...and...er...Hizbollah's honour! and Israel! Come on, there must be a few more fatuous diversions around here somewhere!

 

[WildCat]

The point being addressed was were Hezbollah were justified in keeping their arms.

No, they weren't. They were supposed to disarm, and they didn't.

Do you understand now that the 2nd Amendment doesn't give political parties the right to raise their own private armies which answer only to them?

 

[Toontown]

How are the leftist pro-Hezbollah useful idiots like going to spin this one? Claim the UN is framing them up? Claim Hariri was asking for it and it was an "understandable response"?

Your question has now been answered. They have resorted to hypocritical charges of vitriol, bluster, false equivalencies, and distraction.

And a false application of the 2nd amendment to the U.S. constitution.

Does it get any better than this?

 

[Toontown]

The Maronites (and the other non shia groups) are mostly in northern lebanon. The demographics have shifted since the 70s. Hezbollah have numbers on their side and are unlikely to need Syria. It's not in Isreal's interests to try and start a civil war in lebanon. To much chance of Hezbollah winning.

So Hezbollah gets Lebanon, after a U.N. report implicating Hezbollah, it's mama Syria, and it's daddy Iran, in a brutish assassination of a head of state.

Well. So much for the U.N.

And Hezbollah already had Lebanon, de facto. So nothing changes except the Zombie Left heaves a big sigh of relief that their gizmo Hezbollah has once again prevailed.

And people wonder why I call it Monkeyworld...

 

[geni]

And you think, in violation of UN resolutions, that they were.

Given the history of lebanon would you let go of a weapon once you go hold of it? Wouldn't you want to protect your loved ones?

Historicaly low level warfare (okey massacres) is just what happened in the lebanon area. So unless you want to try and argue from a pretty pacifist position you are unlikely to be able to produce a logicaly consistent position where the shia are not justified in having an armed militia.

In fact you practically consider Hezbollah's existence a blessing.

Probably not the wisest choice of thread to extol your support for a terrorist organization, given that the topic is about how they murdered the Prime Minister and 23 innocent bystanders.

Interesting strawman.

 

[geni]

No, they weren't. They were supposed to disarm, and they didn't.

More correctly they were supposed to be dissarmed. So far no one has been inclined to try.

Do you understand now that the 2nd Amendment doesn't give political parties the right to raise their own private armies which answer only to them?

I'm having a hard time seeing how you would prevent them from raising a militia. After than once a miltia reaches a certian strength in comparision to the state that it is in then the ability to ignore the goverment is a predictable result.

Why we don't just accept the facts on the ground and declare southern lebanon to be a seperate state I don't know.

 

[geni]

So Hezbollah gets Lebanon, after a U.N. report implicating Hezbollah, it's mama Syria, and it's daddy Iran, in a brutish assassination of a head of state.

Thats demographics for you. The shia have more kids than the maronites or the druze. The result in predictable although aparently not to the french.

Well. So much for the U.N.

It's the middle east. That has pretty much been established with the Iraq war and Israeli settlements.

In any case lebanon is a league of nations construct not UN.

And Hezbollah already had Lebanon, de facto. So nothing changes except the Zombie Left heaves a big sigh of relief that their gizmo Hezbollah has once again prevailed.

Nah Hezbollah are avowedly anti-marxist. Something to do with the atheism thing I think.

No Lebanon offers so many groups for your bleeding heart leftist to feel sorry for. The druze for example. They think they are muslim. Pretty much every other muslim group on the planet thinks otherwise. The result has historicaly been large amounts of oppression.

 

[FireGarden]

I suppose that the Saudi's will be giving help to the Sunni factions if a conflict breaks out? Will the west back the Christians?

Some of the Christians back Hezbollah, such as:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Patriotic_Movement


As for the thread...
Yeah, it's really important that the STL is going ahead with the indictments. At the same time, we don't officially know what they have said. We don't know the evidence upon which they have based their conclusion. So there's really not much new since the last thread on Hariri.

 

[WildCat]

I'm having a hard time seeing how you would prevent them from raising a militia.

And yet, in 220 years it hasn't happened. Maybe there's a reason for that?

 

[Virus]

No Lebanon offers so many groups for your bleeding heart leftist to feel sorry for. The druze for example. They think they are muslim. Pretty much every other muslim group on the planet thinks otherwise. The result has historicaly been large amounts of oppression.

Yet the leftists feel selectively sorry only for the most violent Islamists. Probably because they mirror their own hatred of the US and Israel and remind the leftists of the failed Marxist guerrilla movements they used to support.

 

[ddt]

The Hariri murder was just one of many.
As I recall, quite a few politicians, judges and what not got blown up.

The pattern seemed to be that all these were opponents of Hezbollah.

Yes, political murder is the national sport in Lebanon. That tradition, however, goes back at least 30 years, longer than Hezbollah exists. There has been factional strife as long as I can remember. Groups would (re)-ally with the murderers of their former leader the day after the funeral, in case you wonder why Hariri Jr. headed a government with Hezbollah. And he's lost more family members than just his father, IIRC.

It is already progress that the Hariri murder is investigated at all and that the UN report is there - none of the previous political murders were ever investigated, AFAIK. It would be a shame indeed if the report were not followed up.

That country is in some deep doodoo. There unity government depends on the support of a party that is financed by a foreign state and has a private militia that not only unilaterally declared war on a much stronger state, has now apparently assassinated the frigging prime minister.

They've never quite gotten out of the mess, it's always been a tight-rope walk. Lebanon was carved out of the Syrian mandate in 1923 or so by France to protect its interests there in the Christian community. The National Pact says the president must be a Maronite Christian and the PM a Sunni Muslim. Seat allocation in Parliament is along religious lines. However, today about 40% of the Lebanese population is Shia. Political parties have always been aligned along religious lines, and have also been used as vehicles for meddling from foreign countries, traditionally Israel and most importantly Syria - and with the rise of Hezbollah also Iran.

IMHO, the real underlying problem for Lebanon is that it never got rid of this religious factionalism. Religious differences are superficial. The real political differences between people are along class lines. (How's that for a left answer, Virus? ) Get rid of those backward religious divisions and you also largely get rid of foreign meddling, especially by a theocracy as Iran.