Why god won't heal amputees....

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mat/21/22.html

I am especially interested in the one which follows, but so as to avoid "cherry picking," I will say that I read it in context with all the other quotes on the linked page, most of which require nothing of the one who prays....

John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
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God doesn't sound much as though he's shunning the spotlight, here, or waiting for a coincidence. This particular verse (taken out of its context, yes) doesn't even say belief or faith is required. Just ask.

Yeah, well...two bucks, cuppa coffee, etc.


Edit...wrong word
 
St.JosemariaOraProNo said:
This forum proves that God doesn't heal retards either.
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I know quite a few retarded people and have one in my immediate family, and every one of them is more developed morally than you present in this post. They often treat with respect and unconditional love those who would use their condition as a derogatory term for another.

Real Christian of you St. Jose.
 
As an amputee, I am convinced that it is because if we were left perfect, the rest of you would be so depressed by your inadequate comparison to us that there would be mass suicides. God, in his/her/its/their wisdom, decided that it was better to give you poor folks a bit more hope.

It's ok. We get together every other month to just sit around and gloat.
 
Well, it's a good question. For me as a believer, the jury is still out on healing. I do believe in mind over matter is some instances. For example, mental illness (which I subsequently don't believe is an empircal disease outside of maybe Schizophrenia).

I also believe that how we "feel" affects our health. Now I can't "sunshine sing" my way into a new arm, but certainly I can better fight off a cold by staying upbeat, positive, and active. That God does or does not play a role in that upbeat feeling, is hardly my concern.

That said, by way of apologetics, I see death as inevitable. To pray contray to death is a denial of the truth of being a human being. I see lost limbs much the same way... why would I pray contrary to the laws of empirical reality? Furthermore, why would I expect God to bend these laws for me? What makes me so special?

Finally, as to why doesn't God answer unambigious prayers, I'd say precisely because they are unambigious. It negates the trust factor (which I believe is ultimately more important to God than mere belief).
 
stamenflicker said:
Well, it's a good question. For me as a believer, the jury is still out on healing. I do believe in mind over matter is some instances. For example, mental illness (which I subsequently don't believe is an empircal disease outside of maybe Schizophrenia).
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I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but for people with mental disorders, that statement can be very offensive. In particular, even where something like depression can be treated through psychotherapy, it's a long, hard process, which creates real changes in brain chemistry. It's certainly not as easy as saying "I will not be depressed now."

I also believe that how we "feel" affects our health. Now I can't "sunshine sing" my way into a new arm, but certainly I can better fight off a cold by staying upbeat, positive, and active.
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It's quite a bit more complicated than that. While depression and other forms of sad or self-excoriating thoughts have been shown to weaken the immune system (and even then, not in the same ways for everybody, and not enough to make it certain that the depressed person will get sick), the reverse isn't true. Positive thinking can improve perceived coping and quality of life, but not the objective markers of illness. Also, this interesting study seems to show that even when dealing with purely mental states, positive thinking is more effective for dealing with depression than with anxiety or PTSD. Plus, positive thinking itself is not without dangers.



Finally, as to why doesn't God answer unambigious prayers, I'd say precisely because they are unambigious. It negates the trust factor (which I believe is ultimately more important to God than mere belief).
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Yet I know a number of people who believe in God precisely because they think that they had evidence at some point in their lives of God looking out for them. They certainly think that God bent physical laws for them, and will admit no other explanation. They don't think there's any ambiguity at all. Where's the trust, then?
 
stamenflicker said:
...snip...

Furthermore, why would I expect God to bend these laws for me? What makes me so special?

Finally, as to why doesn't God answer unambigious prayers, I'd say precisely because they are unambigious. It negates the trust factor (which I believe is ultimately more important to God than mere belief).
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Yet when you think the Christian faith was founded on God doing the exact opposite.

The Bible is chock-a-bloc full of God proving his existence and his ability to directly intervene in the world.

Jesus was not believed in his day (according to the Bible) because people told stories about him, because he was a good man and made impressive sermons. He was believed to be the Messiah because he bent and broke the "empirical laws" time and time again, indeed he even was willing to provide "empirical" proof of his resurrection to one of his disciples.

Many Christians have attempted to explain this discrepancy however I've never found any of their reasons compelling.
 
When an amputee has enough faith in god, and prays hard enough, that god thinks he deserves his limb(s) back, god goes back in time and stops the limb from being removed, alterating the course of history in the process.

God does this because he's a really nice guy, but he just doesn't want anyone to know he exists. (edit: which is why he hates religious people who insist on believing in him).

Yes, I am just being silly.
 
Maybe it's all because of Leviticus 21: 16, where god says disfigured people can't approach his altar. The short answer is that God does hate amputees.;)
 
Starrman said:
I also like dthis quote from the website: "God never "answers prayers" if there is no possibility of coincidence."

But then I realized the fatal flaw in the whole thing - if god's requirement is that you believe via faith alone, then the above must necessarily be true. If he answered the prayer to cure all cancer, we would believe because of evidence, not because of faith.
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Then I chime in wondering why "belief without proof" is metaphysically valuable to a god. You're supposed to do this stuff for fear of Hell, or for the reward of Heaven, but only believing that without proof, which is ludicrous.

I can see if god is filtering for people who will do good things without being coerced with rewards or punishments (though belief in the pedantic John 3:16 pure version sticks out as a glaring oddity) but even so, what's the point if the afterlife is a reward for such people -- where the skill of helping is absolutely useless.
 
Beerina said:
Then I chime in wondering why "belief without proof" is metaphysically valuable to a god. You're supposed to do this stuff for fear of Hell, or for the reward of Heaven, but only believing that without proof, which is ludicrous.

I can see if god is filtering for people who will do good things without being coerced with rewards or punishments (though belief in the pedantic John 3:16 pure version sticks out as a glaring oddity) but even so, what's the point if the afterlife is a reward for such people -- where the skill of helping is absolutely useless.
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Of course it is ludicrous - that is because we puny humans can't possibly understand a god's motivations (that's fair, I guess). But how does a believer know that god isn't the universe's ultimate deceiver himself, seeing how low on your knees he can drive you before pulling the curtain back and throwing you into hell anyway? We are constantly told that god works in mysterious way and we can't understand him fully - yet are told to accept as fact without evidence that he is even good in the first place.

Again - the only way to acheive parsimony, is to take him out of the equation. Without god - all of these questions dissapear. Other metaphysical questions remain, but puttin god in as the answer without evidence is no way to make any progress.
 
Starrman said:
No argument here - just trying to think of what a possible response from a believer might be. Again - I think my second point is probably a better answer from that perspective. An obvious miracle would negate the need for faith, which is what god likes the most.
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So why the hell were there obvious miracles during Biblical times, but not now? Was it okay to negate the need for faith back then, but it's not okay now?

The whole religion thing as practiced by fundamentalists just doesn't work at a very basic level, UNLESS you toss out certain attempts to use "reason" with it. They are unshakable in their faith. For me, these discussions just reaffirm the fact that there is no god.
 
I wonder, if I were to pray hard enough, would I be able to grow a third arm?

-Bri
 
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