Why Flight 93?

[Jonnyclueless]

That imprint could also have been created by a giant goose.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Could you explain it to me then, please.
(I'm not being facetious)

The plane was between said to be at a 40° angle, but the impact area looks like a 90° angle impact to me.
It's a flaw of mine I guess. People say I focus on little aspects, but I like to understand things fully. I always have. I took a toaster apart when I was 6 years old because I wanted to know how it worked. (So my parents told me)

I also want to see a map that has a compass on it, and the planes flight path.
That way I can fully understand the event.
Those seem to be the two major parts I have not seen much information on yet. What would really help is a picture of the crash sight from above with the flight path and compass on it. I cannot find one.

What this guy said! He is super smart! And cute too!

But seriously, I would love to have the info in my quote.
Would you like to hear my biggest problem with flight 93?
People were at the scene in minutes...and people said they saw some light smoke in the trees, but no fire. That just slaps me in the face.
I cannot get a handle on that. I have never seen or heard of a plane crash that did not have a massive fire afterwards. Columns of thick black smoke streaming into the sky....Flight 93, light gray smoke and no fire.
I know some photo's show fire damage in the trees, but the fire went out in a few minutes? I do not get it.

 

[Jonnyclueless]

How much oxygen is there 40 feet underground in the mud?

 

[Brainache]

Why Flight 93? I think the "real" question should be: Why Shanksville?

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

.Shanksville is a borough in Somerset County, Pennsylvania, United States, with a population of 245, as of the 2000 census. It is part of the Johnstown, Pennsylvania Metropolitan Statistical Area as well as the Pittsburgh Tri-State. Shanksville came to international attention during the September 11, 2001 attacks, with the crash of United Airlines Flight 93 nearby.

Hmmm "International attention"...

Shanksville's history is traced back to 1798, when Christian Shank lived and operated a grist mill, and two saw mills. Shanksville was incorporated as a borough on January 25, 1913. [1]

More grist for the mill? Could the incorporation of Shanksville have something to do with the Federal Reserve?
Hmmm...

As of the census of 2000, there were 245 people, 96 households, and 69 families residing in the borough. The population density was 525.5/km² (1,391.9/mi²). There were 100 housing units at an average density of 214.5/km² (568.1/mi²). The racial makeup of the borough was 100.00% White.

The Reptoids hate Whitey!

The crash of United Airlines Flight 93 on September 11, 2001 occurred 2 miles north of Shanksville, outside the borough limits in Stonycreek Township

So it wasn't even Shanksville at all!!! Why are they keeping Stonycreek Township so secret?

/raving lunacy.

 

[Corsair 115]

I have never seen or heard of a plane crash that did not have a massive fire afterwards.

How many of those crashes involved a high speed plunge at a steep angle into the ground? I'm guessing not many. Most air crashes involve something going wrong on takeoff or on approach for landing, or CFIT (controlled flight into terrain) type of accidents.

 

[Gravy]

What this guy said! He is super smart! And cute too!

But seriously, I would love to have the info in my quote.
Would you like to hear my biggest problem with flight 93?
People were at the scene in minutes...and people said they saw some light smoke in the trees, but no fire. That just slaps me in the face.
I cannot get a handle on that. I have never seen or heard of a plane crash that did not have a massive fire afterwards. Columns of thick black smoke streaming into the sky....Flight 93, light gray smoke and no fire.
I know some photo's show fire damage in the trees, but the fire went out in a few minutes? I do not get it.

Still spewing denialist nonsense, I see. When do you suppose you'll stop doing that?

Then Peterson said he saw a fireball, heard an explosion and saw a mushroom cloud of smoke rise into the sky.

Peterson rushed to the scene on an all-terrain vehicle and when he arrived he saw bits and pieces of an airliner spread over a large area of an abandoned strip-mine in Stonycreek Township.

"There was a crater in the ground that was really burning," Peterson said. Strewn about were pieces of clothing hanging from trees and parts of the Boeing 757, but nothing bigger than a couple of feet long, he said. Many of the items were burning. http://tinyurl.com/fa75e


Local FBI agent Wells Morrison told author Glenn Kashurba what he saw when he arrived at the crash site: "We arrived in the immediate area and walked up to the crater and the burning woods. My first thought was, 'Where is the plane?' Because most of what I saw was this honeycomb looking stuff, which I believe is insulation or something like that. I was not seeing anything that was distinguishable either as human remains or aircraft debris." (Glenn Kashurba, Courage After the Crash, 2002, p. 110)

"Everything was on fire and there were trees knocked down and there was a big hole in the ground."
http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/956356/detail.html

Upon arrival, firefighters found small pieces of the plane, spot fires, and a large quantity of fuel scattered across a wide debris field. A quick survey of the scene found no survivors. Additional resources were requested from County Control, which included additional suppression companies and the Somerset Fire Company’s hazardous materials team. http://www.nvfc.org/pdf/rolevolfiresvc911.pdf

Fleegle said he climbed on the roof of an abandoned cabin and tossed down a burning seat cushion that had landed there.
http://www.flight93crash.com/MyPittsburghLIVE.htm

After FBI hazardous materials response teams examined the remains of the wreckage and determined levels of toxic and flammable materials were low enough for workers to proceed safely in protective gear, investigators fanned out — searching around the soot-rimmed crater the plane left in the ground, and walking into the gash it cut in the nearby woods.

Investigators are using yellow and red flags to stake spots around the site to mark where they had located parts from the aircraft, human remains or personal items belonging to the plane's 38 passengers and seven crewmembers. The painstaking, inch-by-inch search turned up the plane's cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder on Thursday, the "black boxes" that could explain what happened Tuesday after hijackers took control of the plane, and how apparent heroic acts of a few passengers prevented the aircraft from reaching its intended target in Washington, D.C." "Pennsylvania Disaster Workers Respond to Flight 93 Tragedy"


"There was a great explosion and you could see the flames. It was a massive, massive explosion. Flames and then smoke and then a massive, massive mushroom cloud." http://tinyurl.com/m347n


"I just watched with my mouth open as this yellow mushroom cloud rose up just like an atomic bomb over the hill where I like to go hunting," said 72- year-old John Walsh

Barefoot and in his bathrobe, he drove up the dirt road to rescue anyone he could find. There would be nothing he could do.

Debris, including photographs and other papers that survived the fireball, was strewn over a wide area. Residents have spent days collecting it. http://tinyurl.com/oapxx


Charles Sturtz, 53, who lives just over the hillside from the crash site, said a fireball 200 feet high shot up over the hill. He got to the crash scene even before the firefighters. http://tinyurl.com/rl5qc

The Flight Data Recorder recording. http://tinyurl.com/myayp

The FDR data show that the plane was intact and its systems were operating normally at impact. The plane’s roll angle corresponds to eyewitness reports:

1. Cabin pressure - NORMAL
2. Hydraulics - NORMAL
3. Cargo fire - NORMAL
4. Smoke - NORMAL
5. Engines - RUNNING
6. Engine RPM (N1) 70%
7. Fuel pressure - NORMAL
8. Engine vibration - LO
9. Wind direction - WEST
10. Wind speed - 25 kts
11. Pitch angle - 40 deg down
12. Airspeed - 500 kts
13. Heading - 180 deg
14. Roll angle - 150 deg right
15. AoA - 20 deg negative

The Cockpit Voice Recorder recording transcript: http://tinyurl.com/rxe8a

Details of the 37 phone calls made from the plane:
http://911debunker.livejournal.com/7697.html?mode=reply

Flight paths of 4 planes (Wash. Post)

Recorded Radar Data Study--all four aircraft



You're not even trying. Why?

 

[leftysergeant]

A good part of the fuel was buried with the fuselage and wings. Some of it would neccessarily have been expelled and quite well-aerated. It would have produced a fireball similar to that at the facade of the Pentagon. It would also have consumed the available oxygen rather quickly. The duration of the burn would not have been long enough to start a generalized fire in the woods.

 

[Father Dagon]

But now you are questioning the Conspiracy Theorists logic, we all know they don't have any. To think like a CT you must excuse all scientific and rational explanations.

And to add a neck-breaking parable: The logic of CT is like Lenin's theory of imperialism. A CT has to expand or die. ("CTs shuns a vacuum.") Consider the private investigators of the Olof Palme assassination. In the early years, they kept a sound and reasonable level. But then they went right into the swamps of CT. The most infamous of them are Lars Krantz, who claims that he committed suicide assisted by his wife.

(All this is mentioned in greather depht in an article written by Rasmus Fleischer, and I can translate it into english, as it's quite interesting on a meta-level.)

I think that the root to the CT-think is the fallacy that evil, stupidity and various mistakes are aberrations, and not something all too everyday.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Still spewing denialist nonsense, I see. When do you suppose you'll stop doing that?

*snipped links*
You're not even trying. Why?

I'm not 'spewing' anything. I have areas of concern, and I note them. If you have a problem with it, quit reading them. Got it?

Now, thank you for all those pointless links. They did not address my issue in the least little bit. I realize there was a fireball.
But look at the photo's that were taken from aircraft.
There is a large section of tree's that were burnt badly. Yet, no fire. How do tree's burn that badly and just go out in a few minutes?
It does not make sense to me.

 

[Gravy]

I'm not 'spewing' anything. I have areas of concern, and I note them. If you have a problem with it, quit reading them. Got it?

100% B.S.

In your posts, like those on this page, you make statements of fact about 9/11, nearly every single one of which is 100% wrong, and all of which are 9/11 denier claims.

Now, thank you for all those pointless links. They did not address my issue in the least little bit.

Yes, they did. All of the issues you stated. Try reading for comprehension.

I realize there was a fireball.

And now you know there were fires in the crater, on the ground, on at least one rooftop, and in the trees, and jet fuel everywhere.

But look at the photo's that were taken from aircraft.

No apostrophe needed in "photos." I guess it didn't occur to you that the fires had burned out by the time those photos were taken.

You're not even trying. Why don't you care?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

100% B.S.

In your posts, like those on this page, you make statements of fact about 9/11, nearly every single one of which is 100% wrong, and all of which are 9/11 denier claims.

Yes, they did. All of the issues you stated. Try reading for comprehension.

And now you know there were fires in the crater, on the ground, on at least one rooftop, and in the trees, and jet fuel everywhere.

No apostrophe needed in "photos." I guess it didn't occur to you that the fires had burned out by the time those photos were taken.

You're not even trying. Why don't you care?

*yawn*
I stated from my first post I had a problem with 93. You act like it is new.

When were the earliest pictures taken, Gravy?
How long would a fuel soaked tree burn?
Why don't you go splash a few gallons of kerosine on one and find out. Then explain to me why a patch of burnt trees goes out in less then 10 minutes.
Did you see a continuation of smoke from the 'fireball' picture? No.
Was the smoke even black? No.

Everything I say is denier claims? Like me saying I do not believe in the CT theory? Like that one? Yeap, I'm a CT theorist because I say I'm not. Got to love gravy logic...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZekosYOmXc
Where is the large patch of burnt trees in that video?
I see a few black and one smoking....not a large patch.
Why does it not add up? That is why I have a problem with this site, it does not make sense.
You can call me a denier all you want because your opinion means nothing to me. If you have something relevant to show other than a wall of links leading to people saying they saw a fireball, then don't bother.
I do not need a link to the FDR information. Unless the reason for the burnt tree patching growing in size somehow and them not burning for longer than 10 minutes is on it.

Pic one is the flight 93 'fireball' pic. Note the lack of fire in the 'fireball'.
Pic two is ordinance in Beirut-airport.
Pic three is a plane crash.
Note the differences?

If you think I am saying no plane crashed there, then you're wrong.
What I am saying is that something is not right about the flight '93 story.

 

[DGM]

How long would a fuel soaked tree burn?
Why don't you go splash a few gallons of kerosine on one and find out. Then explain to me why a patch of burnt trees goes out in less then 10 minutes.
Did you see a continuation of smoke from the 'fireball' picture? No.
Was the smoke even black? No.

Don't forget that most of the liquid fuel (traveling at 580 mph) would be forced deep into the ground where it can't burn. The fire ball is from the vaporized fuel. The fuel wouldn't just splash at that speed.

 

[Brainache]

I'm not from that part of the world, but would it be surprising if at about 9.30am on a September morning the trees near that field were covered with dew?

As the plane crashes into the ground, the tanks are smashed and a large amount of the fuel is aerosolised then ignited. The resulting fireball is intense, but brief. The dew is vaporised and the trees get charred, but the fireball doesn't last long enough to cause a full on forrest fire.

Now if it had've happened above Eucalyptus trees in mid summer in Australia it might have been different.

I'm no expert, so I admit I may be totally wrong here, but it seems to make sense to me.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

There is not need to start name calling and all that. If people remain civil then I will as well. Thanks to the two posters that followed my last reply for trying to come up with reasons why the blast looks like an ordinance of some type going off and not acting like a child. Leave that childish junk at the playground.

I can somewhat see why the plane going into the ground would limit the fire. However, that still does not explain the color of the blast, the lack of smoke from trees that should have continued the smoke ascension, why the fire burned itself out so quickly, or the fact that the video showed the volume of trees that were burned badly in later photo's was nothing like what we see from a video that was shot after fire crews were there .
How did the damage to the trees get worse in the later photo's?
Also, it was stated that the area did have fuel around it. Why did it not burn?

And to further my problem with it all, I still have not see a compass direction of the impact area and the flight path of the plane from the FDR on a picture.
It seems like that information would be important as well.

 

[DGM]

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93shanksvillesummaryofevidence,man

The information you seek is here including a map. In the future may I suggest you try a little harder. This is from Gravy's link.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The information you seek is here including a map. In the future may I suggest you try a little harder. This is from Gravy's link.

Way to assume I 'didn't try hard' to begin with. I've looked at all that information. I have not posted on this issue because I wanted to read all the information I could about it before bringing it up.

I've already read all of Gravy's posted links, and they did not address my concerns, such as....

Why does the color of the 'fireball' not match any aircraft fire I have ever seen?
I've looked at hundreds of video's and pictures and not one airplane crash had gray smoke. Not one. All of them were pitch black.

So you try hard. Try finding one that looks anything like flight 93. I've tried for days to find one. Then go look pictures and video's of war where bombs are being dropped and then you'll see gray smoke. (depending upon what is hit)

It does not explain how early video showed the patch of burnt trees was very small, and showed fire crews at the scene. How did the area of burnt trees grow like they did while fire fighters were already there and there were no more spot fires?

Is the below correct? If so, why did none of these warnings signal according to the FDR information?
According to the FDR, the ‘Sink Rate’ warning did not activate.
Terrain - Did not activate
Too Low Terain - Did not activate
Terrain Ahead Pull Up - Did not activate
Ground Prox Warning - Did not activate
GPWC Failure - Did not activate. Again, this seems to indicate that the GPWC on board UA93 was functioning throughout the flight.

The reason I want to flight path is to see the planes direction of inertia to explain how an engine ended up half a mile from the impact point, and also how debris ended up 8 miles away.
Shoot debris up into the air a quarter mile if you want, and the debris will not go eight miles in a reported wind of 9mph. That does not add up.
Clothing and a books five and six miles away? How?
A 9mph wind would not blow a feather more than a few hundred feet.

It does not make sense.

 

[DGM]

Way to assume I 'didn't try hard' to begin with. I've looked at all that information. I have not posted on this issue because I wanted to read all the information I could about it before bringing it up.

I've already read all of Gravy's posted links, and they did not address my concerns, such as....

Why does the color of the 'fireball' not match any aircraft fire I have ever seen?
I've looked at hundreds of video's and pictures and not one airplane crash had gray smoke. Not one. All of them were pitch black.

So you try hard. Try finding one that looks anything like flight 93. I've tried for days to find one. Then go look pictures and video's of war where bombs are being dropped and then you'll see gray smoke. (depending upon what is hit)

It does not explain how early video showed the patch of burnt trees was very small, and showed fire crews at the scene. How did the area of burnt trees grow like they did while fire fighters were already there and there were no more spot fires?

Is the below correct? If so, why did none of these warnings signal according to the FDR information?
According to the FDR, the ‘Sink Rate’ warning did not activate.
Terrain - Did not activate
Too Low Terain - Did not activate
Terrain Ahead Pull Up - Did not activate
Ground Prox Warning - Did not activate
GPWC Failure - Did not activate. Again, this seems to indicate that the GPWC on board UA93 was functioning throughout the flight.

The reason I want to flight path is to see the planes direction of inertia to explain how an engine ended up half a mile from the impact point, and also how debris ended up 8 miles away.
Shoot debris up into the air a quarter mile if you want, and the debris will not go eight miles in a reported wind of 9mph. That does not add up.
Clothing and a books five and six miles away? How?
A 9mph wind would not blow a feather more than a few hundred feet.

It does not make sense.

I meant no offense but the type of questions you ask go way beyond the normal curiosity. This means that you would likely need to do more in depth research then would be expected. Maybe a FIOA to the NTSB.

Personally with 95% of the aircraft recovered and all the rest of the evidence, Including IDing all the bodys I see no point. There's always going to be differences from one instance to another.

 

[Corsair 115]

I've looked at hundreds of video's and pictures and not one airplane crash had gray smoke. Not one. All of them were pitch black.

I think my question from before applies again:

How many of those crashes involved a high speed plunge at a steep angle into the ground? I'm guessing not many. Most air crashes involve something going wrong on takeoff or on approach for landing, or CFIT (controlled flight into terrain) type of accidents.

 

[lapman]

From the imprint in the ground, it is clear that the plane hit up-side down. Notice the way that the dirt in front of the crater is pushed up. This is a clear indication that the plane was moving in that direction. The faintness of the tail imprint is significant in that it would seem to me to indicate that it was already begining to separate from the rest of the aircraft when it hit. Thus, it would easily have been catapulted into the woods, where it was allegedly found. The same could be said of various fuselage parts. It is quite likely that this was also when some of the lighter contents such as paper items were catapulted into the air, and perhaps kept there by the heat of the deflagrating fuel and the thermal updraft it created.

[qimg]http://killtown.911review.org/images/flight93/msnbc-tail.jpg[/qimg]

The one thing that CTers claim about that photo is that the wings are at the top of the crater near the tail and not at the bottom of the crater where you'd expect the wings to be. What they forget is that when an airplane is inverted, it no longer has lift unless you trim the aircraft to counteract the negative lift. That would not have been the case with flt 93. Hence the path the plane would have been traveling would have been at an angle and not straight into the ground.

 

[lapman]

duplicate post. Sorry.