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Why dualism?

I am not sure if awareness happens because of neural activity or not - research seems the demonstrate the contents of the mind are. Re your stroke question - awareness happens in the present moment, remembering objects are the contents of the mind, which are seemingly effected by brain activity.
As you can gather, I am making a distinction between awareness and the contents of the mind . . . and from this point on, I'll use the term 'consciousness' to mean the awareness of an object(s), being aware of the contents of the mind.


Saying awareness happens because of neural activity is a bit like saying Ahab pursues the whale because of the placement of ink, or because of the sequencing of letters of the alphabet. It's technically true—no ink, no letters, no Ahab—but it leaves out some very important structure in between.

Annnnoid assures me (above and in thread after thread on this topic) I do not know what consciousness actually is, nor does anyone else. But I believe I do know what it is. It's a consequence of the brain's ability to not just sense threats and opportunities represented by shapes or sounds or smells or patterns or movements, but to interpret the world as things and beings having thoughts and performing actions for reasons. None of those elements—things, beings, thoughts, actions, or reasons—are entirely concrete or fully bounded. They are instead components of narrative.

Generating such narrative from raw sensory input and memory is an enormous and expensive computation. But it has large rewards in the form of ways to address threats (not just imminent ones but future ones) and exploit opportunities (likewise).

Now, in theory this could be done in the third person; that is, omitting the being performing the computation from the narrative being computed. We might imagine aliens or artificial intelligences thinking that way, but the process is unlikely to emerge in that form via evolutionary development of nervous systems, for several reasons. Chief among those reasons are that a first-person narrative is more likely to derive the evolutionary advantage of better negotiating the world for the being doing it (rather than, for instance, putting its results into effect by advising others); and that it is efficient to re-use the same computational structures needed to derive the actions and reasons of beings like oneself to also include the actions and reasons of the self. (It would probably be more complex to prevent that from happening; that is, to somehow build in special rules for leaving the self out of the narrative.)

So what is consciousness? It's the self as a role (a role much like the other things and beings) in the generated narrative.

… which will no doubt bring up the inevitable infinite regress argument: "But who is observing this self or this narrative?"

The process of generating the narrative is the observer. That's what an observer, in that ordinary sense of the word (we're not talking quantum physics here), is. A process that generates a narrative from sensory input and memory content.

"But that alone wouldn't or couldn't feel like awareness."

Why wouldn't or couldn't it?

… to which the only coherent answer I've ever gotten amounts to, "because no process possibly can," which of course is begging the question, introducing dualism (in the form of something that exists, that's not a process, and also not a material substance, that accounts for awareness) as an axiom. Which is one way to answer the thread title: "Why dualism?" But not, to me, in an adequately justified way.
 
and all this is a distinction that makes no difference


Well it makes no difference to you because you are someone who is happy to proceed by the deliberate deceit of altering peoples posts!

What my post actually said was (the words that I actually wrote) -

" ... the result of chemical and/or electrical/physical responses in the cells that make-up the human brain."

and

"the physical structure that we call the human brain".


So in the actual post there was never the slightest doubt or ambiguity that I was talking about the physically existing nature of the chemical responses and/or electrical responses, in the physical structure that we call the human brain.

Although it's now apparent that not content with altering peoples posts, Larry and least two others here are now reduced to suggesting that things such as the human brain with it's cells and it's chemical and electrical reactions, do not actually physically exist.

You no longer have a case except in crackpot land (of which you can see an endless list of crackpots and charlatan's promoting the same NDE-OBE ideas on YouTube ... it's apparently a subject which is filled with fantasising spiritualist and theist nutcases), if your argument is reduced to claiming that the human brain does not physically exist.
 
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So why even bother speculating that a "physical" exists? Well, we think it answers some questions - but it really doesn't.
This is important to this discussion because the paradigm is that a physical brain creates consciousness - but we can't even demonstrate the brain exists as a physical object.


It's not a "speculation" to say that things "physically exist". It's a linguistic description which is applied to things we can detect either through our sensory system (by hearing, vision, touch, smell ...), or by scientific (or other) studies (e.g., by all sorts of spectroscopy, by photographic imaging, by all sorts of detectors from simple home smoke detectors to Geiger Counters, to all manner of chemical tests for the presence of countless different molecules etc. etc.).

But it is simply no longer credible to suggest as older generations of philosophers once did (and as some may even still try claiming today) that what we call the "human brain" does not actually exist, because all of science , medicine, and all the courts of Law, reject through overwhelming and unarguable evidence, that the brain certainly does "physically exist".

You cannot for example go into a court of law as the defendant accused of shooting the victim through the brain with a bullet, and tell the judge that your defence will be to claim that the victims brain never existed! ... at least you cannot do that unless the judge is allowing it as a demonstration to the jury of your complete insanity (ie if your defence is actually to show that you are insane).

Moreover, if you go around trying to claim that the brain or anything else is not actually real and does not "physically exist", then you are denying all of published research science .... all of the literally thousands of millions of papers that show why the evidence says you are hopelessly and utterly wrong, to the degree of the hypothetical defendant in court who is certified insane (or else an idiotic time-wasting liar).

And if you want to argue that perhaps science is wrong and that ancient methods of philosophy or spiritualism should be used instead, then that is an argument that philosophy of that sort, spiritualism and theistic belief, lost many centuries ago. Which is why in all democratic advanced countries today, the courts rely heavily on independent scientific testing and expert scientific evidence, and not at all on asking any philosophers, theists, or mystic-mediums to appear before the court with their beliefs about reality.

Or to summarise all that much more briefly - if you are making any argument (such as brains don't physically exist) that is in flagrant disagreement with all of published science, then you already lost that argument at least 150 if not 200 years ago.


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/physical+entity

physical entity

1. physical entity - an entity that has physical existence


entity - that which is perceived or known or inferred to have its own distinct existence (living or nonliving)

thing -a separate and self-contained entity

object, physical object - a tangible and visible entity; an entity that can cast a shadow;
"it was full of rackets, balls and other objects"

causal agency, causal agent, cause - any entity that produces an effect or is responsible for events or results

matter - that which has mass and occupies space; "physicists study both the nature of matter and the forces which govern it"

physical process, process - a sustained phenomenon or one marked by gradual changes through a series of states; "events now in process"; "the process of calcification begins later for boys than for girls"

substance - material of a particular kind or constitution; "the immune response recognizes invading substances"
 
I'm replying to you rather than quoting because if I manage to skip a word you throw a fit . . . and again you are using many words to raise a distinction that makes no difference, I am referring to the use of the phrase 'physical brain'. I am not saying the brain does not exist, but what I am saying is that the term 'physical brain' adds no value - and there's no way to prove a 'physical brain' exists. BTW, the definition of 'physical' I am using is: that which is independent of, or is outside of consciousness. The definitions of 'physical' you cut and paste are all circular and useless.
All the knowledge of the brain we have are images, measurements and etc, either through our senses directly or by proxy, and are all mental objects of consciousness.
 
BTW, the definition of 'physical' I am using is: that which is independent of, or is outside of consciousness.


Speaking of circular and useless, that definition of "physical" inherently postulates dualism. Any argument for dualism that is based on or incorporates that definition is thereby circular.
 
Speaking of circular and useless, that definition of "physical" inherently postulates dualism. Any argument for dualism that is based on or incorporates that definition is thereby circular.

I agree - any definition of matter / physical is useless and or circular. . . so why bother supposing it exists? It does not add any clarity - only ambiguity.
 
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I agree - any definition of matter / physical is useless and or circular. . . so why bother supposing it exists? It does not add any clarity - only ambiguity.

You're okay with your own (re)definition being circular? Allrighty then.
 
I agree - any definition of matter / physical is useless and or circular. . .


You have not demonstrated this. I showed only that the definition you yourself insisted on is circular.

so why bother supposing it exists? It does not add any clarity - only ambiguity.


The reason is because unless we postulate bounded (aka physical) existence, there is no possibility of communication, which makes discussing the question worthless. You would still be free to derive my responses entirely from your own introspection if you prefer, but if you want to read actual replies from me, you are forced either to implicitly acknowledge the existence of me, my keyboard, and so forth as separate entities from yourself, or to take a position that's self-contradictory from the start.
 
Speaking of circular and useless, that definition of "physical" inherently postulates dualism. Any argument for dualism that is based on or incorporates that definition is thereby circular.

Which exactly is the problem with this discussion. It uses the very thing it disproves to try and prove itself.

Behind the pompous pretentious navel gazing word salad people are arguing essentially that you can't prove reality exists because all evidence for reality exists within reality.

But that's reality as a concept is, an outside of our perception existence. So basically the question is "What would reality be if reality didn't exist." Well it wouldn't be reality, case closed.

And that's a dead end. The conversation either has to stop at "I can't prove reality is real" or you have to accept that reality is real if you want to discuss it at all.

You can't demand someone you're having a conversation with prove reality exists. You're conceding that it does by trying to have the conversation with a part of it. You can't demand a figment of your imagination convince you they exist.

And since no one here is honestly acting as if reality exists, any special pleading (that totally isn't about some Woo wink wink) that we can't prove reality exists is hypocritical.
 
I'm replying to you rather than quoting because if I manage to skip a word you throw a fit . . . and again you are using many words to raise a distinction that makes no difference, I am referring to the use of the phrase 'physical brain'. I am not saying the brain does not exist, but what I am saying is that the term 'physical brain' adds no value - and there's no way to prove a 'physical brain' exists. BTW, the definition of 'physical' I am using is: that which is independent of, or is outside of consciousness. The definitions of 'physical' you cut and paste are all circular and useless.
All the knowledge of the brain we have are images, measurements and etc, either through our senses directly or by proxy, and are all mental objects of consciousness.


I am not throwing any "fit". I am telling you to avoid misleading people here by misquoting my posts ; cutting the words off in mid sentence, as if my post did not make perfectly clear what I meant by saying that the human brain is a physically existing structure. You omitted the words that actually said -


" ... the result of chemical and/or electrical/physical responses in the cells that make-up the human brain."

and

"the physical structure that we call the human brain".


As for the rest of your above post - there is no way to "PROVE" absolutely anything at all in the sense of it being a 100% absolute certainty. You cannot even prove 1+1=2 for real world events, without making at least one fundamental un-"proved" assumption. That's something we found out for real world events, from Quantum Mechanics ... real world events are determined at their most fundamental level, by probabilistic factors and not by any deterministic "certainty".

But as far as the object called the human "brain" is concerned, all of science and all of medicine, neuroscience, psychology etc., shows that of course the structure that we call "the brain", most definitely does "physically" exist.

You cannot argue against that with any ancient pre-scientific philosophical semantics. Because as I just pointed out - science won that argument against philosophical and theological theories, at least 150-200 years ago.

If you want to argue against that and say that the brain does not "physically exist", then you are arguing against all known science, all of medicine, all neuroscience and psychology etc., and claiming instead that some puerile childish word-argument from ancient outdated philosophy should take precedence. Well, the claims of philosophy most certainly do not take precedence in the 21st century, so any argument from you along those lines has been dead in the water for centuries.

Put it another way - I hope for your sake that you are not going to need brain surgery any time soon, where all the hospital staff refuse to do anything for you beyond telling you that they don't believe your brain "physically exists". Where they stand there looking at the physical object that we call your brain, and agree with you that it does not exist as a physical (that means "tangible", of "material substance"), real object.
 
So how exactly is this conversation supposed to go.

Ted: (Makes literally any request for any intellectual standards, invokes any standards of evidence, requests objective evidence or proof of anything, or basically wants to have a discussion on any level above "Just spout off any random thing that comes in your head.")
Bob: No. You can't prove anything is real. So you can't make any factual statement. Oh and all my Woo is therefore true.
 
I agree - any definition of matter / physical is useless and or circular. . . so why bother supposing it exists? It does not add any clarity - only ambiguity.

Well, that's the whole concept of ontology, examining the nature of existence. While part of that examination can be considering something doesn't actually exist it can also be supposing that it does or exists in a manor different than perceived.
 
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I'm replying to you rather than quoting because if I manage to skip a word you throw a fit . . . and again you are using many words to raise a distinction that makes no difference, I am referring to the use of the phrase 'physical brain'. I am not saying the brain does not exist, but what I am saying is that the term 'physical brain' adds no value - and there's no way to prove a 'physical brain' exists. BTW, the definition of 'physical' I am using is: that which is independent of, or is outside of consciousness. The definitions of 'physical' you cut and paste are all circular and useless.
All the knowledge of the brain we have are images, measurements and etc, either through our senses directly or by proxy, and are all mental objects of consciousness.

Ontology is mute, all we have is the appearance...
 
Ontology is mute, all we have is the appearance...


Actually it is one of the benefits of an independent objective reality that the nature of something doesn't change or depend solely upon how it appears to us.


A mirage in the desert that appears as a body of water does so since it seems to reflect the sky. The nature of the existence (ontology) of that perception is the refraction of light combined with our interpretation of how a body of water appears at a distance.
 
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… which will no doubt bring up the inevitable infinite regress argument: "But who is observing this self or this narrative?"

Actually there is no "infinite regress argument:" self monitoring is a well established aspects of many automated systems. Often initiating corrective or fault response actions, preferably just signaling everything is still OK. While there isn't (at least that we know of) a construction of a self narrative in those devices or systems as in consciousness, it still demonstrates no inevitable infinite regress in self monitoring.
 
Actually there is no "infinite regress argument:" self monitoring is a well established aspects of many automated systems. Often initiating corrective or fault response actions, preferably just signaling everything is still OK. While there isn't (at least that we know of) a construction of a self narrative in those devices or systems as in consciousness, it still demonstrates no inevitable infinite regress in self monitoring.


How do they get around the problem of the monitor monitoring itself?
 

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