Why did certain religions ban pork?

???

Am I prevented from agreeing with you, for some reason ?

Weird.

Now I'm wondering if you're actually a random-text generator.

I never said you couldn't agree with me. I asked what you were agreeing with, because your points and mine are completely different. In point of fact, I'm saying that your point throughout the thread is irrelevant to the discussion. I may have misunderstood your point; I may have convinced you; one of us may have switched universes at some point like Vimes' Disorganizer. I simply don't know, and was requesting clarification, and clarifying my position in case you misunderstood me.

Though I have to admit, given your conduct thus far on the forum you agreeing with me has made me seriously question my position.
 
I will say it again:

The dietary laws are not only about restricting pork. Please, if we are going to discuss this, why not discuss the entirety of the restrictions? Why focus on pork? Why not discuss the restriction on whales, or grasshoppers? Or lobster? Or musk oxen? Or even whether tomatoes are kosher. There was a debate about this in 17th century rabbinical circles.

Because this thread was about pork.

If you have similar taboos and know the history of them, then you are on topic; but in this post you are not.
 
Can anyone tell me why I don't get any more email notifications via thread subscriptions? I have checked that I am subscribed, but ever since I removed some old subscriptions I get no more notifications for any thread, subscribed or not.
 
Because this thread was about pork.

If you have similar taboos and know the history of them, then you are on topic; but in this post you are not.

Yes, the thread is about pork - and the Jewish ban against pork is perhaps the most well-known. I agree with xterra that you can't look at the Jewish ban against pork as an isolated case, but that you have to view it in the context of the whole of the Jewish dietary laws, the kashrut. For one, because they don't even mention pork explicitly, but only implicitly.
 
If you're interested in the detail, I'd say that the claim that is disputable, but even moreso that

Muslims *claim* that Islam is "Abrahamic" (and certain secularists, religious relativists, and atheists help to vehicle that claim), except that Islam denies many of the foundational tenets of Judaism (and Christianity) -- in that it claims that ALL Prophets prior to Mohammed were either mistaken or that they were positive liars.

The belief system of Islam is intrinsically incompatible with Judaism and Christianity, for reasons that I've already provided, notwithstanding various claims otherwise. It is, in fact, founded upon a deliberate rejection of the foundational dogmata of Judaism and Christianity.



I have no interest in your personal opinions regarding my posting style.

The differences you bring up are MINIMAL, hair-splitting !!!

Real differences are nowhere to be seen!!! !!!
 
. . . (mega-snip) . . . oh dear oh dear ...

Recent Biblical philology and archaeological discoveries of fragments of older editions of the Torah have in fact dated the writing of its earlier volumes to around circa 3000 BC IIRC . . . (mega-snip) . . .

Please provide evidence for this claim.
 
A fool can ask more questions than thousand men can answer.


It helps if you read the posts in the first place. The prohibition in Judaism as well as Islam (they're very similar) is not against meat in general, only certain meats. Beef, mutton and goat - to name the most popular ones - are permitted.

And the prohibition against other meats like pork in Islam is obviously derived from the Judaic laws. Muhammed was well acquainted with Judaism as well as with Christianity. And at the start of his religious career, he was very chummy with the Jewish residents of Mecca. (Later he fell out with them, and the portions of the Quran hostile to Jews date from after that).

And of course a fool can reply to questions saying that questions are foolish.

You totally avoid answering the question, whether applicable to Jews or Muslims. Is that part of the logic in your first sentence?
 
Yes, the thread is about pork - and the Jewish ban against pork is perhaps the most well-known. I agree with xterra that you can't look at the Jewish ban against pork as an isolated case, but that you have to view it in the context of the whole of the Jewish dietary laws, the kashrut. For one, because they don't even mention pork explicitly, but only implicitly.

What does that mean? Is it supposed to be an answer to why there is a taboo against pork, because there is one, implicitly?

Try to stick to the topic instead of meaningless references to isolated cases and context that you don't explain.
 
What does that mean? Is it supposed to be an answer to why there is a taboo against pork, because there is one, implicitly?

Try to stick to the topic instead of meaningless references to isolated cases and context that you don't explain.

No, it's an answer why it's totally justified of xterra to see the Jewish ban on pork in the wider context of kashrut. According to kahrut, you're only allowed to eat clean animals. Clean mammals are those which (a) have cloven hooves, and (b) are ruminants.

As you see, the word "pig" is not spelled there. Pigs are unclean because they are no ruminants. But the same rule says that bears, lions, camels, horses, dogs, rats, etc. etc. are unclean. And that's just about the mammals; there are also rules about birds, fish, insects, etc.

The focus on pork only stems from its popularity among non-Jews in the western world. But from the styling of the law, that makes no sense.
 
No, it's not just about tapeworm and other parasites -- pork meat is actually very fragile, and it starts to deteriorate very quickly after butchering compared to other meats. ....
Well it would appear the evidence does not support this claim. Beef and pork go bad at the same rate.
 
Very good, I hadn't thought of that. Now, does anyone know how coffee/tea got the ban in Mormonism?

This at least feels like a way forward instead of all the guessing.

I did some spells of contract IT work at Mormon HQ in the UK and asked them about this. They said anything addictive or 'stimulating' was out, hence no coffee or tea. But they were allowed everyday colas. Go figure.
 
I once heard a Jewish spokesman of some sort on radio put forward the opinion that the dietary laws and other religious prescriptions and proscriptions are intended to be daft and arbitrary because they are a test of faith; and making people do stupid things is a very good test of faith.

This is both true and so mind numbingly stupid that I wanted to shake his hand and slap him at the same time.
 
Well it would appear the evidence does not support this claim. Beef and pork go bad at the same rate.

Online information seems on non-refrigerated meat storage seems to be hard to locate -- objectively, this is not surprising, given that the standards for industrial meat production, distribution, and storage at home are systematically based on refrigeration.

Best I can find on the topic is THIS :

http://www.google.com/search?q=cach...apter.asp?chapterDOI=9781847559821-00001+&amp

(IF that link works, for which no guarantees sorry)

Reading through the section on spoilage, the meats that are more often mentioned than others as having a particular propensity to specific bacterial infections are poultry and pork.

Some pork-specific information is found here :

http://www.recipetips.com/kitchen-tips/t--159/pork-handling-safety-storage.asp

... among which "With pork being approximately 30% leaner than it was a few decades ago, it is important not to overcook it if the desired result is to produce a cut of meat that is tender and juicy. In the past it was thought that pork had to be cooked until well done to eliminate the risk of trichinosis. Improved production and processing conditions have mostly eliminated the risk of trichinosis but some risk does remain. We still have to be concerned that the meat is handled and cooked properly to eliminate all risks."

Beyond the science, however, the perception that people have historically had that pork was a particularly unsafe meat cannot be discounted.

It is a matter of general knowledge that many of the semitic peoples held, and even today still hold, that pork is an unclean meat, because of sanitary concerns.

It is clear that properly butchered and refrigerated pork is no more unhealthy than other meats -- nevertheless, it is just as clear that housewives and butchers will spontaneously describe pork as being particularly susceptible to spoilage, and that it needs to be eaten more quickly after purchase than other meats, as well as greater care being taken with its preparation before consumption.

You could, clearly, argue that these more impressionistic arguments are "unscientific", which would be accurate -- but I would have a hard time believing that such arguments have not been routinely encountered by members of the forum, and I would argue that these conceptions are common and widespread, regardless of their scientific validity or lack thereof.
 
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The differences you bring up are MINIMAL, hair-splitting !!!

Real differences are nowhere to be seen!!! !!!

These differences are central, and greatly significant.

They portray an entirely different conception of God in Islam than in Judaism and Christianity.
 
My understanding is that they ban all mind-altering chemicals, or at least that was the intent.
I thought it was something like this, caffeine, alcohol et cetera.
Please provide evidence for this claim.
Don't hold your breath. :rolleyes:

I did some spells of contract IT work at Mormon HQ in the UK and asked them about this. They said anything addictive or 'stimulating' was out, hence no coffee or tea. But they were allowed everyday colas. Go figure.
Including ones with caffeine? That seems odd.

These differences are central, and greatly significant.

They portray an entirely different conception of God in Islam than in Judaism and Christianity.
:rolleyes:
 
The differences you bring up are MINIMAL, hair-splitting !!!

Real differences are nowhere to be seen!!! !!!

In other words, it's in the finest tradition of religious argument.

Jabba is ignoring the fact that differneces of doctrine are what make somethign a new religion. This is the theological equivalent of a Creationist saying "Microevolution, sure--but not macro!!!" In a few posts he'll be demanding to see a Muslistian.

JabbaPapa, no one is claiming that the religions AS THEY ARE TODAY are the same. What we are saying is that Islam branched off of the Jewish religion, and was influenced by the Christian religion--just as the Christian religion branched off the Jewish one (I defy you to argue that THAT didn't happen). Once the two faiths diverged, the Islamic faith could differ as much as it wanted from the Jewish faith without comitting apostasy, and therefore over time they'd become more and more different. This is a basic application of memetic theory, one which has clear support in the history of Christianity and its various offspring.
 
Over in the LDS thread, some evidence was presented that at the time Joseph Smith was looking into his hat, the most modern 'medical' knowledge was that hot drinks were bad for a person. The theory is then that JS ran with this, a bit like if a religion came along today the founder might suggest a Paleo diet as being something that his/her disciples should follow.

I'll go to have a look at the LDS thread....
 
Over in the LDS thread, some evidence was presented that at the time Joseph Smith was looking into his hat, the most modern 'medical' knowledge was that hot drinks were bad for a person. The theory is then that JS ran with this, a bit like if a religion came along today the founder might suggest a Paleo diet as being something that his/her disciples should follow.

I'll go to have a look at the LDS thread....

Sorry to take so long. I think these two posts by Pup explain the idea about topical health advice at the time matches with the prohibition on hot drinks (and other dietary rules) for Mormons.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8905535#post8905535

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8907490#post8907490

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...a bunch of illiterate goat herders living on survival...

"illiterate goatherds" ...

In comparison to their neighbours, the Hebrews were illiterate goat herders, ...

...these "illiterate goatherds" ...

... the infamous "illiterate goatherds".
...

... "illiterate iron age goatherds". ...

... "illiterate iron age goatherds" ...

Did that doctoral-level literature study include a section on how to properly quote someone?
 
Just to bring up the Harris book again.... He covered a wide range of food foibles in the book, including as I mentioned the "cow love" of the Hindus...
And as well the fact that various peoples find edible things that other folks don't.... People living in tropical areas often consume insects with gusto... They are plentiful and nutritious, and don't require a great deal of effort to gather.
Not the case in more Northern climes...
Folks in areas like Japan, with a rather limited farming sector, rely greatly on the sea and as a result will consume all manner of sea-food items that most of the world won't...
They also have a culture of pickling nearly everything... A good strategy for coping with no good food-storage systems.
Harris makes the case that most all of these are at root economically-driven... And often incorporated into religion or taboo to add weight and moral authoritiy.
 

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